One organization makes decisions, and another organization does the final touching, something along those lines. So now we need to break up the work split. Let me ask if anyone wants to— I want to too. Is there anyone who wants to take the first one? Anyone is fine. Let's form a small group first. Participant A, is anyone wanting to take the first one? Participant B. One, two, three.

有一个组织做决策，有一个组织中间润色的，就类似这种类型。所以说现在要把分工分出来嘛。 我问一下有没有人想—— 我也想。 想干第一条的有没有人？ 都行。 先组个小组嘛。参与者A，有没有人想干第一条？ 参与者B。 123。

Anyone else? One, two, three, four. That's good, now we've got four. Then we can exit now, and just wait for them to decide and bring in a leader. Come on, um, um, the State Council's Standing Committee member and so on, come on. Haha. Second. Who's the second? Let's do another one. Send a message about the art evidence.

还有吗？ 124。 可以了，这不就有4个了。然后我们现在就可以退出了，等他们决策一个领导人出来就行了。 来吧，那个那个，国务院常委什么什么的，来吧。 哈哈。 第二个。 谁是第二个？ 还是搞一个。 艺术证据发个消息。

Come on. Yeah, we're pushing it right now, Chinese Modern History is on our side. Play it again. Then I'll take the ball. Who will send it? Yeah, this should be live. We're one. Right, right now we're building a country. That's awesome. Time to fight for power has come. Come on. Hahaha.

来吧。 对啊，我们现在就在推吧，中国近代史在我们这边。 再演一遍。 那我接龙。 谁会发的？对啊，这应该在直播。 我们是一个。 对，我们现在就是在做建立一个国家。 太牛了。 争权时间到。来吧。 哈哈哈。

Hahaha. So you have something?

哈哈哈。

And then, I just want to do the first part.

所以你有东西吗？ 然后

Yes, yes, yes. No. Theory part. Good. You do it. Yeah. Go, go for it. But I mean, if that's what the group— that's what I wanted to say. That's representative democracy. If it's in a government system, you assign a person to do or speak for you. You know, for a certain period. And you elect a person, and then the person does,

我只是想做第一部分。 有有有。

and you have to kind of trust this person. That it does. But the person has kind of freedom. Let him chase in the front. Hm? I'm letting them chase in the front.

不。 理论部分。 好。 你来做。 对。 去，去做吧。 但我的意思是， 如果那就是团队—— 我想说的就是这个。 那就是代表性民主。 如果它在政府体系里， 你就任命一个人来替你做事或发言。 你知道，就在某个时间段内。 然后你选出一个人， 接着由那个人来做，

从 me myself， From me myself, the only fascinating art isn't the first part.

你也得多少相信这个人。 就是这样。 但这个人也有一定的自由。 让他去前面追。 嗯？ 我让他们去前面追。

Right. The first part. Yeah, and they're obviously systems people. So it's— Yeah.

唯一迷人的艺术不是第一部分。

The first group. But what I want— Too much.

对。 第一部分。 对， 而且他们显然是体制派的人。 所以就是—— 对。 那个第一组的。

The first group. But I want to say, what I want to say, the radical thing that I propose is that you can assign three people, or one person, to do it.

但我想—— 太多了。 第一组的。

The third group. And you don't have to do shit. It's very efficient. But it's a question of trust. We talked about that.

但我想说， 我想说的是， 我提出的那个激进点是， 你可以任命三个人， 或者任命一个人来做。 第第三组。

You go. How about we do one first? If not, should we move to the next page? Hahaha. That Liu. Okay. If it doesn't work, then move it to the countryside again. Move it to the countryside is fine. So okay, two more minutes. Take some decisions or not, and then the workshop for today is going to be wrapped.

而且你什么都不用干。 这非常高效。 但这关乎信任。 我们谈过这个。 你去。 要不先来一个吗？不行再下一页吗？ 哈哈哈。 那个刘。 可以。不行的话再把它下乡吧。 下乡可以。

The second topic. Yes.

那好， 再多两分钟。 要不要做一些决定， 然后今天的工作坊 就要结束了。 第二个题目。

The question that was raised. The third question. Oh yeah.

是。 提出的问题。第三个问题。

Mmhmm. What is the National People's Representative Congress now? Yeah, it's listening.

哦对。 嗯。 全国人民代表大会现在什么？

So I took three dragons, dragons from three parts. Wrap.

对，它在听。 那我接了三个龙，三个部分的龙。

It's written on the final to attend. Hey, that "is and people," if you want to join which part, they can write down the name on the yeah. Perfect.

收尾。 要参加决赛上面写。 哎，那个 is and people,

There will definitely be a little. Thank you.

如果你想加入的是哪一部分， 他们可以把名字写下来， 在那个......对。 完美。 肯定会有一点。

You need to listen to what they say, but we should have our own space. What about the second place? I can do the second one. I feel it's too complicated. And he has several concepts at the same time. We need to write the truth. The truth. Let's write the true name. Then this one. Second part for.

谢谢。 你们要听他们说，但是我们应该有自己的空间。 那第二名呢？ 第二个我可以。 我感觉太复杂了。 而且他同时有好几个概念。 要写真理。 真理。 写真名吧。那这个。

Be a bit friendlier to me. Okay. The frequencies.

第二部分给...... 对我友好一点。 可以。

And then... it's more pure editorial part. It's really— it's really a misunderstanding. Um, uh, second. Wait, schemes. Okay. It's really— ah, fuck it. Is that also like a— like a content, but like select content from outside or something? No, I mean, it's— isn't it— it's kind of obvious, right? It's that the people who produce material

频率。 然后

and it's the people who curate the material. Basically. Like think the material. Think material from the first part, think about the framing, think about how it's going to go out, think about the marketing, think about all that. Okay. The third layer is only systems. What is this institution? How is it called?

这更偏纯编辑的部分。 这真的——真的是个误会。 呃，呃，第二。 等等，方案。 好。 这真的——啊，算了。 那也算是一种—— 算是内容，但是选定的内容 从外部来的之类的吗？ 不是，我是说，这—— 不是吗——这不挺明显的吧？ 就是那些制作材料的人

How is it structured? Has nothing to do with the material. Nothing.

以及策展这些材料的人。 基本上。 就像想想这些材料。 从第一部分的材料来想， 想想构图， 想想它会怎么发布， 想想营销， 想想这些。 好。 第三层只是系统。 这个机构是什么？ 它叫什么？

It's a bit like we write text, or we're actors and all that, and the second group is kind of like a director's room. And the third group is the director, the kind who can scold everyone. Damn it. This is— this is kind of internal. I mean, with— yeah, with marketing and everything.

它的结构是什么样？ 跟材料毫无关系。 没有。 有点像是我们是写文本的，或者是演员什么的，然后第二组有点像编导那种。然后第三组的就是导演，就是可以骂所有人的那种。 我操。

Mmhmm. And also this is where the website is, right? The interface.

这——这有点内部的。 我是说，跟——对，跟营销 以及所有这些。 嗯。

Okay.

而且网站也在这里，对吧？ 界面。 可以。

The second and the third. So what do we do with the socalled collection? What I mean is, it's collected, then created again—or your pure creation. You just take it, what you produce, what you collect, and randomly put it together, it doesn't matter. Yeah, should have. I should have. Check the—

第二个跟第三个。 所谓收集怎么做。 我的意思是说是收集下来的，再创作，或者是你的纯创作。 你就是把它，就是你做出来的，你收集出来的，随便把它拼到一块，都无所谓。

This part of the content seems unrestricted. Mmhmm. Right, the first one was more of a fight. Hahaha. I'm the one who fights, I guess. Ugh. Yeah, okay. I'm— I'm a little bit in a tricky situation, because on day 1 I had the same situation. We were kind of at the end of the day, I tried to find out what you want, and it was not possible. Like, like with the vote before. This is absurd for me. And it's a cultural difference, I think, because I otherwise I cannot explain it.

对，本来就该这样。 我本来就该这样。 检查一下—— 这部分内容好像是没有局限。 嗯。 对，所有第一个比较吵架。 哈哈哈。 我是吵架吧。

You know, that I ask, "Do you want this?" or "Do— who wants this?" and not one hand goes up. It's like, "This cannot be." I mean, someone must want that, because it's a logical thing to do. There is not so many options of what we can do. And then I ask for the second thing, and then all the hands should go up,

唉。 嗯，好吧。 我——我有点处在一个棘手的情况里， 因为第一天我也遇到了同样的情况。 我们差不多都快到结束了， 我试着弄清楚你想要什么， 但根本不可能。 就像之前那次投票一样。 这对我来说太荒谬了。 而且我觉得这是文化上的差异， 因为不然我根本解释不清。

because that's— these are the options. And zero hands go up. I don't understand. So, so I think— I think I don't know how to deal with you. Because I don't know how— how we can move it on. It's like, I saw how you discussed the stuff, and it's exactly what we should do. But when we are interacting, it's like, okay, this was— this was really crazy,

你知道，我会问， "你想要这个吗？" 或者"那——谁想要这个？" 结果没有一只手举起来。 就像在说："这不可能。" 我的意思是，总得有人想要这个， 因为这本来就是合乎逻辑的。 我们能做的选择并不多。 然后我又要求第二样东西， 接着所有人都应该举手，

because it was saying really weird shit. But— but how can I— how can we, um, like, get from these, um, 60% to like 65%, and then also get from, like, being— like that right now, from not really able to— kind of do something into a— into a modus where we can actually do something. And I told you, I just need a few sentences.

因为那就是——那些选项。 结果没有一个人举手。 我不明白。 所以，所以我觉得——我觉得我不知道 该怎么和你相处。 因为我不知道该怎么—— 怎么把这事往前推进。 就像我看到你怎么讨论这些东西， 这正是我们该做的。 但当我们在互动的时候， 就会觉得，好吧，这——这真的太疯狂了，

I can work with that. But I need to know, is it a— is it an organization, or is it a algorithm, or is it a church, or is it a fucking sports organization, or I don't know. Is it a company, and then what— yeah, exactly, the process. Yeah, what kind of process would you like to have? You know? And it's not that— that's going to happen,

因为他在说一些特别离谱的话。 但是——但我该怎么—— 我们怎么，呃，怎么从这些—— 呃，从60%降到大概65%， 然后又怎么从那种—— 就像现在这样，从其实没法—— 某种程度上做点什么，变成—— 变成一个我们真的能做点事的状态。 我跟你说过，我只需要几句话。

but that's just what you imagine, and then you say it, and then it can be built in. Isn't that the process we should do?

我可以接受这样。 但我需要知道， 这是——这是个组织吗， 还是一个算法， 还是一个教会， 还是他妈的个体运动组织， 我也不知道。 是公司吗，然后接下来—— 对，没错，就是流程。 对，你希望有什么样的流程？ 你懂吧？ 而且也不是说——那会发生，

Those processes. Yeah, I tried. I— I tried, but I don't want to assign. But I know that if I say now, "Who wants to do what?" it's not going to happen. Oh, I see. 90% of the people will just say, "I don't know," or something like that. That's what Luzius is going, okay? Do you know? Mmhm. Maybe you can help.

但那只是你想象出来的， 然后你把它说出来， 接着就可以把它融入进去。 这不就是我们该做的流程吗？

Okay. Because, um, I'm a— I'm not— it's not an issue. It's really not an issue. I'm enjoying it, very much. Okay. Because I enjoy to feel the difference and the— the— But I would also like for all of us to have the experience of then— because you said you want something. I'm happy with just talking.

那些流程。 对，我试过。 我——我试过，但我不想去分配。 但我知道，如果我现在说， "谁想做什么？" 就不会发生。 哦，我明白了。 90%的人只会说， "我不知道"之类的。 Luzius就是这么想的，好吗？ 你知道吗？ 嗯哼。 也许你能帮忙。

But you said you really want a producer. So sometimes— some— sometime we have to— Yeah. Okay. Um, I'll try again.

好。 因为，呃，我——我不是—— 这不是问题。 真的不是问题。 我非常享受这个过程。 好。 因为我喜欢感受到差异， 还有那种——那种—— 但我也希望我们所有人 都能有那样的体验—— 因为你说你想要点什么。 我只是聊聊就很满足。

I know I don't want any kind of situation, it's just that he asked why there's no one. Find something for yourself—something you want to do. Honestly, I think everyone is, um, doing whatever they want is fine. So I think either it's random, and you just split up what each person does. Unless there's someone who really

但你说你真的想要一个制片人。 所以有时候——有时——有时候 我们得—— 对。 好。呃，我再试一次。 我知道我不要啥情况，就是他说为啥没有人。 给自己给自己找找其中自己想做的东西。 其实我觉得大家都是，嗯，就是做哪一方面都OK的。所以呢，我觉得要么呢，就是随机，就直接分好大家做什么。 就是除非有大家真的有有某个人

wants to do a particular part. Okay, okay.

他特别想做哪一个部分。

Then just put it forward, otherwise we just split up directly, or, uh, split it randomly. For example, I give myself a die, if I roll a 1, I do 1, if I roll a 2, I do 2. Mm, I want to do that sound. I want to do the sound part.

好，好。 然后就提出来就好了，不然就我们就直接分，或者是，呃，或者是随机分。比如说我给我一个骰子，丢到1我就做1，丢到2我就做2。 嗯，我想做那个声音。 我想我想做声音的部分。

There's one more question: I actually don't really know, among these three processes, what the difference is between the first and the second. Uh, I feel like they're pretty similar. Mm. I feel the second one is like splitting a style, and the third is directly taking a style set from the second, and creating it right away.

还有一个问题是，我其实我不太知道他这三个流程里面第一个跟第二个之间的区别是什么。 呃，我感觉他们还挺相似的。 嗯。 我感觉他第二个是类似于分一个风格，然后第三个是直接从第二个定的一个风格，直接去制作。

It's following the specific direction the second gives you. Follow his order completely, uh, and do it seriously. Like, I finish the first one, then roll it to the second part, and after the second part is done, roll it to the third part. Or are we doing it at the same time? We have to ask him—he didn't say that. He really never talked about this aspect.

就是听从第二个给你的一个具体的方向。 完全按照他的顺序，呃，严肃地进行。就是我第一个先做完，然后丢给第二个部分，然后第二个部分做完再丢给第三个部分。 还是说我们在同时进行？ 这个得问他，他没说。 这个方面真没说过。

I guess this thing of his is repeated. Like when you push each process down, the previous part still gets new things feeding back. The first one definitely has to be the newest. Because that one is more like the basic architecture, the very bottom part is the basics. So the basic architecture needs to come out as soon as possible,

我估计他这个东西应该是有反复性的。就是你每个流程往下推的时候，上一个部分还会有新的东西去feedback回来。 肯定第一个是要最新的嘛。因为那个比较像基础架构，第一他最下面那个就是基础。 所以基础架构可能就要最快出来，

and then move on to the second. And during the process of making the second one, you might notice some problems, then come back and feedback on the very bottom basic architecture. Then like that, from the third one to the third, and then collaborate like this, correcting each other as you do. So according to this process, you probably still need to roughly decide the first one,

然后再去第二个。然后第二个在做的过程中，可能会发现什么问题，然后回来反馈那个最下面的基础架构。然后再这样，从第三再做到第三个，然后再就这样相互协作，相互在做的过程中相互纠错。然后按这个程序来说，可能还是得先就第一个大概定下来，

and roughly decide the next ones first. So actually, only with production data do you have a rule, right? That's probably it. Because once you have this basic rule, anything you do becomes much clearer, right? Let's start first. Start with the third one first. Yes. Let me give you a question first. Yeah, I mean the first one can always be counted down to last,

下面下面第一个先大概定下来。 所以其实这里面有个生产资料才有个规则，对吧？ 应该是这样。因为有了有了这个基础规则，做什么都会清晰很多，不是。 先开先开始了。 是第三个先开始。 对。 我先带你一个问题。 对啊，我说第一个一直能倒数第一个，

the very bottom one. You've always been going backwards. I feel like that should be written in the first one. But, but you counted down to the third. But. Sorry, I said it wrong. I thought about it, I thought about it, that 2 is the one processed in the first one. I just feel that with this process,

就是最下面那个。 你们一直是反下来的。 我感觉那个就应该写在第一。 但是但是你倒数第三。 但是。 对不起，我说错了。 我想了我想了，那个2是就是是在1上那个加工的。 我我就觉得这样这样这样这个流程的话，

I think 2 and 3 are pretty similar. Like, if I were to set a rule, I've already decided that the production data I need is, for example, what kind of image it is, and what kind of content the video is. Then 3 and 2 are pretty similar too. I think maybe, for instance, that production data is,

我觉得2和3也挺像的。就是我如果要定一个规则，我其实已经定了我需要的这个生产资料它本身是一个，比如说它是一个什么样的图片，是一个什么内容的视频。那其实3和2也挺像的。 我想是可能比如说，就是那个生产资料它是一个，

where you go look for some basic materials, like images or videos from onsite work, and the second one might be you processing the video on top of this video. But the third one is about how to arrange all the filtering, like you already have a lot of videos processed like this,

就是你去找一些基础性的材料，就是现场类似于一个现场的图片或者视频，然后那个第二个可能是你要在这个视频上给这个视频做加工。但是但是第三但是第三个它是就是怎么去安排所有的筛选，就是比如说你已经有了很多这样加工好的视频，

how to filter them, or how to place them. III think maybe it's like that, but I'm not sure.

怎么去筛选，或者怎么去就是放置。 我我我想可能这样，但我不确定。

I think the third one is meant to determine the direction, or the basic architecture, and then in 2, trust it, believe in it, and then build from that. The third one is to be the one deciding the direction, or the one deciding the process.

我我想的是他指的是第三个应该是起到一个最决定方向或最决定基础架构，然后在2去信信任它，去相信它，然后再去从它那个发展下来。就是第三个是做一个决定方向者，或者决定流程者。

That kind of decisionmaking. Relationship. That's it. But I think this process should follow 123, or 312, I actually think neither is a problem. Then it's 3321, right? 321? Yeah. Shouldn't there be an image first before processing? Or do you want to decide the processing method first,

这样一个做决。 的关系。 就是这样。 但我觉得这个流程其实按123走还是312走，其实觉得都都没问题。 那是3321吧。 321吗？ 对啊。 难道不是应该先有个图片才开始加工吗？ 还是说你想要先确定加工的方式，

and then go look for the image? Then go look for the image. Okay. So both are possible, but you need to be sure. That's right. Right now, the network capability isn't good enough. This kind of traffic.

然后再去找图片？ 再去找图片。 可以。 那就是都可以是都可以，但是要确定嘛。 没错。 现在是网络能力不行了。 这种流量。

Then I... So in the end, in the end, does he still want to turn it into a website or what? His intention right now is to make it a website. Ah. OK. Then we... Can we just save it as is? Is that okay? Yeah, we still need to do a rough test. Which part decides this direction.

那我。 那最终他最终他最终还是要做成一个网站还是怎么样？ 他意思现在是做成一个网站。 啊。 OK。 那我们。 我们可以随便存吗？好不好？ 那对，我们还是得得就是大概测一下。 从哪个部分来决定这个方向。

Whether you want to start from 123, or start from 321, we teachers always have to decide, right? Yes. Decide first. Right, so we'll vote and decide now. 313 or 321. I guess your leaning is 312. Yeah, then I don't need it. Right. No need. Right.

就是不不管是想从123开始，还是321开始，我们老师我们总是要决定的不是吗？ 是。 先定。 对，就我们现在就投票决定。 313还是321。 我猜你的倾向是312。 对啊，那我就我不需要。 对。 不用。对。

Let's not talk about this issue anymore. No, you two need to decide it. We need to decide which parts don't need discussion, the parts you do yourself, and which parts are being discussed. Right, so you'll have to drink it. Then let's vote and decide: 123 or 321. Yes. Let's go with that,

我们不要再聊这个问题了。 没有，你们要定一下就是。 我们要定一下哪些部分是哪些部分是不需要讨论，你自己做的，哪些部分在讨论。 对，就让你要喝。 那我们现在就投票决定是123还是321呗。 是的。 就按那个来，

we don't need to discuss it, just follow that order. That works too, we can go with this as well. Mmhmm. I think it's fine, and it's not a problem to have your own ideas, but it's still a workshop, so you can keep playing along the firstclass process. So what I'm actually asking is the teacher's opinion,

我们不要讨论，就顺序就按那个。 那也行，那就按这个来也行。 嗯。 我觉得可以，就也不要也不要太太那个自己的点子其实也没什么问题，但毕竟是工作坊嘛，可以可以一流一流程玩下来嘛。 所以其实我想问的是老师的意见，

does the teacher think we should—uh—decide this ourselves, or do we have to follow the teacher's rules? Not really. I think we should too. Also. Also. It's I'm so I'm so happy

就是老师认为我们应该呃这个是我们自己决定的，还是说一定要遵循老师这个规则？ 也不是。 我也是应该。 也。 也。

you're doing exactly what should happen in the workshop like that. I'm an experimental person. I'm not interested in giving you a I can do that. It's so boring. Giving come here with the concept, giving you a workshop, tack tack tack, teach you a method, teach you a that's so fucking I mean no judgment but yeah

我真的、我真的很开心。

no this is a social experiment as well you have you are discussing now who is responsible and who is not this is a group that is too big to decide collectively that's not possible it's too many people some people will not want to decide and say something but they know exactly what they want some people haven't they don't give a shit

你正在做的事情，正如应该发生的那样。 在工作坊里就是那样。 我是个爱做实验的人。 我不感兴趣给你什么"我能做到"。 太无聊了。 把概念带到这里来， 给你一个工作坊，哒哒哒， 教你一套方法，教你一套，那也太他妈—— 我是说不评判你，但对。

and they will just follow other people are um I mean you have clearly you three have very strong like system level so in in a if I would be kind of the boss of a company and people would say here we say you you design the system you know and you and and then you you send it to me and I'll I'll decide

不，这是一个社会实验。 而且你们现在也在讨论， 谁负责、谁不负责。 这是一个规模太大的群体， 不可能集体决定。 人太多了，有些人不想 去决定、去说点什么， 但他们非常清楚自己想要什么。 有些人根本不在乎，

you know that would be process in a company but this is a we are trying a basic uh democratic system here yeah there's no right or wrong we don't know it doesn't have to be a website that was just an idea I want you just to learn that making art can be something else totally and for a few of you this might be nothing new

他们就只是照着做。 其他人呢，呃，我是说， 很明显你们三个人都有很强的—— 系统层面的东西，所以在—— 如果我算是某种意义上的老板， 一家公司的老板，人家会说： 来，我们说你来设计系统。 你知道的，然后你把它发给我， 我来决定。

in a way and I just show you some interesting stuff and for a few of you it will be really revolutionary new because you start to maybe think differently about what you do that is the point here I have no ego here with what we do or something like that obviously I'm excited if we can do something um if there's a there's a an outcome

这在公司里就是流程。 但这个我们是在尝试一个基础的—— 呃，民主制度。 对，这里没有对错。 我们不知道，这不一定非得是个网站。 那只是个想法。 我只是想让你们学会， 做艺术也可以是另一回事。 完全不同，而且对你们中的一些人来说， 这可能一点也不新鲜。

that uh that surprises me or really uh that I would love that obviously but it's not necessary but. It's not basic democracy do you know this system basic democracy where the group has to agree basically if one person is against it you have to continue discussing it until you are fucked up in the head

某种意义上，我只是给你们展示 一些有意思的东西。 而对你们中的一些人来说，这会非常革命性。 因为你们可能会开始去想， 你们做的事情会不一样。 这就是重点。 我们做的事情这里没有任何自我。 之类的。 当然，如果我们能做点什么，我会很兴奋。 呃，如果有一个结果，

usually I have done these kind of things for like real organizations in a school for example twice it's such hard work and it's not the most it's very productive but it's not the most efficient system. Yes. Have you ever worked in a basic democratic like an art an artist run space where everybody has the same decision rights

让我感到意外， 或者说，我真的很希望能有。 当然，但这并不是必须的。 但是。 这不是基本民主。 你们知道这个体系吗？ 基本民主就是群体必须达成一致， 基本上，如果有一个人反对， 你就得继续讨论。 直到你脑子彻底炸裂为止。

and it's not a vote 50% 51% and then you win you did that

通常我做过这种事。 比如在学校里的真实组织里。 举个例子，做过两次。 这真的很辛苦。 而且它不是最......它非常有成果。 但也不是最高效的体系。 是的。 你们有没有在基本民主体系里工作过， 比如一个由艺术家运营的空间， 让每个人都有同样的决策权，

. It's hard work and it's not always the best decisions

而且不是50%的投票， 或51%，然后你就赢了。 你们做过这种情况吗？

. So I.

这很辛苦。 而且决策也不总是最好的。

I asked let me ask you again what do you want to do. What do you want to do. Do you want to work on something concrete do you want to just have ideas and sit there and post into the WeChat group oh I was thinking about that and maybe it would be interesting to do that and that or do you want to sit down

所以我......

with a with a piece of paper or with a with a software or an AI and design the system you you can design the whole system you you understand what what what what this kind of the idea I mean most of you will understand it's just a trans it's it's a little bit of a communication issue you're all smart enough to to understand

我问过，那我再问你一次。 你想做什么？ 你想做什么？ 你想做点具体的事吗？ 还是只想有点想法， 然后坐在那里发到WeChat群里， 哦，我在想那个。 也许做那个会很有意思。 或者你想坐下来，

and a few of you will not be willing to do that and that's also okay because sometimes it's like no I don't want that this is not the way I want to think and I want to work you know that's that's okay

拿着一张纸， 或者用一个软件， 或者用AI来设计这个系统， 你可以把整个系统都设计出来。 你明白这种...... 这个想法吧，我是说你们大多数人都会懂。 只是有点......有点沟通问题。 你们都足够聪明，能理解。

. But it's interesting that it's the same point as and on the first day

但你们中有些人不愿意这么做。 这也没关系。 因为有时候就会觉得：不，我不想要那样。 这不是我想思考的方式。 我也不想这样工作。 你知道，这也没关系。

it's like you.

但有意思的是，这也是同一个观点。 就像第一天那样。

Or should we first take a look at the first part—the manufacturing materials section? Do you have any materials you personally like? First, let's light the fire in the car. Put it in neutral so it can slide by itself. Then think about the rest. Because what my brotherinlaw and I are talking about is a bit too vague. Most of his artwork should start from a certain point.

就像你...... 还是说大家先看一看呃第一个部分的生产材料部分有没有自己喜欢的那个材料先先把车的火点起来 先挂个空挡让它自己滑嘛 然后接下来再往下想 因为现在我们姐夫俩聊的东西有点稍微有点太太空了 他有一些大部分的艺术创作应该都还是先从某一个点出发

After that, he'll slowly pull in other points. Maybe we'll talk about the first one first. First think whether anyone wants to do the first piece. Video images—let me interrupt for a moment. The first one is a combined approach. It's not like I pick only the first one. For example, I only pick videos. I only pick images. So the materials are a combined set.

出发了之后他会慢慢慢慢再引出其他的点嘛 也许先聊第一个 先想想到底有没有人想做第一个里面的东西嘛 视频图像我打断一下 第一个是综合的 就不是我只挑第一个 我比如说只挑视频 我只挑图片 是等于这个呃material材料它是综合的

It's not like I choose only one part. This might be done by one person. Like one person does everything, right? Yes, that's possible too. So there's one person specifically in charge of this part. He's called the manufacturing materials team. One person—or rather, not one person. Whoever wants to do the manufacturing materials part of the work,

不是说我只挑某一个部分做 这是可能是一个人去做的 就一个人做全部是吧 是也可以啊 一个人就是就是它是有一个人专门负责这一块 叫做生产材料 一个人还是也不是一个人 就是你们谁想愿意做生产材料这一部分工作的人

not just someone who only wants to do videos, or just wants to do something specific. Yes, I understand that. Yeah, what you're discussing now is called representative democracy. But in the production area, so now we come from a basic democratic system to a representative system the group can also say we want these three to design the system we move from a basic democratic system to a representative system. The group can also say, "We want these three to design the system," you do all the images and you do um all the uh process and uh how the how the stuff should be published "and you do all the images," "and you do, um, all the process," "and how the stuff should be published," and so on。 There's a something wrong with translate oh oh yeah I love the fuck and so on." There's something wrong with "translate." Oh, oh, yeah. I love the fuck. -- So. Does it work? Yes. Okay, everybody, um, how did you work? Can you tell me quickly? Did you work in, like, I saw that you were like walking around, or did you work in very small groups, or—

而不是说我只想做视频 只想做什么东西 对我理解这个 yeah what you're discussing now is called a representative democracy but in the production area

Yes, yes—I just thought of some solutions, that I can report out directly. Mmhmm.

那么。 它能用吗？ 能。 好，各位，嗯， 你们是怎么工作的？ 你们能快速跟我说一下吗？ 你们是在，比如说， 我看到你们是在到处走动， 还是说你们是以很小的团队工作， 或者—— 有的有，我刚刚想到一些方案，可以直接汇报出来。 嗯。

Yes, there are solutions, but it's best if we discuss them first. It's fine. We don't have to. Today is not a day— we don't have to be stressed out about anything. Today is really trying to understand what we want to— what we want to do. And I trust that you all are going to come up with stuff, and then that we're going to exchange that really on WeChat. Yeah? I'm going to— I'm going to make

对，有。有方案，但我们最好先讨论出来。

a little, uh, catalog of concrete questions, yeah? So it's kind of structured. I can tell you quickly. It's like, um, um, so it's about— it's the identity of the thing, so the name, the purpose, and the form, and then it's the admission part, so the membership, kind of, or the admission of the material,

没关系。 我们不一定要。 今天不是那种—— 我们不必为此感到压力， 不用为任何事情紧张。 今天主要是想理解 我们想要—— 我们想做什么。 而且我相信你们大家 都会想出一些东西， 然后我们会交流 主要是在微信上。 对吧？ 我会——我会做一个

and the decision procedures, and the third one is, like, the arrangement, like the ordering, the machine, and the removal. And then the part four is the attribution part, so like, authorship, responsibility, for example, a clause in terms of irony, and the fifth part would be maybe change— yeah, who may object,

一个小的，呃，清单，列出一些具体问题， 好吗？ 所以会比较有结构。 我可以快速跟你们说。 就是，嗯，嗯， 主要是——是关于这个东西的身份认同， 也就是名称、目的， 以及形式， 然后是录取部分， 也就是会员资格之类的， 或者材料的录取，

or what kind of amendments do we have, yeah? Who may change the charter, yeah, and what kind of procedure. Um, and the unfinished clause, yeah, that— that it's permanently open and it's alive, and the entity is evolving. So I just told you about this. I will send you this as a— as a translated structure, uh,

以及决策流程， 第三个是，比如说， 安排，也就是排列顺序， 设备，以及移除环节。 然后第四部分是 归属分配部分， 比如作者、责任，例如， 一个带讽刺意味的条款， 第五部分可能是 变更——对，谁可以提出异议，

that you may use, and you can basically, if you want, you can fill that out. The goal would be to have, uh, for each point, to have something written down, and then I can— or someone can do that with me, or I can do it, start to build this system. Like, technically. And you would start to do the different jobs, right?

或者我们有哪些修订，对吧？ 谁可以修改章程，对吧， 以及采用什么样的程序。 嗯，还有那个未完成的条款，对吧， 就是——它是永久开放的， 而且还在生效， 而且这个实体在不断演变。 所以我刚才就跟你们说了这个。 我会把这个发给你们作为—— 作为一份翻译后的结构，呃，

But we decide on that tomorrow, uh, the— the worker design or artist job, the collectorcurator job, and the director or systems thinker kind of job. So, um, if you want, you can just continue the discussions like that. If this is productive. For me, it's not so easy to understand how you work. For me it's interesting to see

你们可以用， 基本上，如果你们愿意， 你们可以把它填写出来。 目标是要有，呃， 每一点都有写下来的东西， 然后我可以——或者也可以让别人来做， 跟我一起做，或者我来做， 开始搭建这个系统。 就是，从技术上讲。 然后你们就会开始做不同的工作，对吧？

like what kind of— like, that you like sit there and then you talk a little bit, and then you do something, or some people are working on the phone, and looking at stuff, or researching. I don't know. Uh, I trust you that you do, uh, that you develop, um, stuff that then in the end will kind of lead

但我们明天再决定这个， 呃，工作者设计或艺术家的工作， 收藏家策展人的工作， 以及导演或系统思考者那类工作。 所以，嗯，如果你愿意的话， 你们就可以继续这样讨论。 如果这对你们有帮助的话。 对我来说，这并不那么容易， 去理解你们是怎么工作的。 对我来说，看看会有多有意思，

to a situation where this all kind of— it's like a— I don't know, it's kind of— it's just kind of falling into place, yeah? We trust the process, that some— that this is going to— this pro— this thing that we're building, is going to— or you can also look at it from the other side. It's kind of coming out of the floor,

比如说你们会做哪一种——就是， 你们会坐在那里， 然后聊一会儿， 接着做点什么， 或者有些人在手机上工作， 看东西， 或者做研究。 我也不确定。 呃，我相信你们会做，呃， 你们会开发，嗯，一些东西， 最后会在某种程度上引导到

and it's manifesting itself. And it's becoming something. Yeah? So what do you want? Do you want to— do you want to— do you want to do a little round of presentation where you say, "Yeah, we talked about that, and we think that, and that, and that," or do you want to just work, and then in the evening,

一种情况，让这一切都像是—— 就像一个——我也不知道， 有点——就是那种逐渐落入 正常的状态，对吧？ 我们相信这个过程， 相信某种——相信这会—— 这个项——我们正在构建的这个东西， 会——或者你也可以从另一个角度看， 从另一边来看。 它有点像是从地板上冒出来的，

or after the workshop time, hours, uh, uh, uh, send— I'll send the structure, and you kind of work with that, and then send it back. And then I have an overview.

然后就显现出来了。 然后它就变成了某种东西。 对吧？ 那你想要什么？ 你想要——你想要—— 你想不想先做一小轮 演示，你会说， "对，我们谈过这个， 我们觉得这样、那样、还有那样，" 还是你想就这样继续工作， 然后到了晚上，

Okay, we'll make it simple. Who wants to talk further and just, uh, do brainstorming and ideas? Raise your hand. Maybe I'll say some.

或者在工作坊结束后的几个小时， 呃、呃、呃，发——我会把结构发给你， 然后你就基于这个来做， 再把它发回来。 然后我会有一个概览。

I just want to talk about it right here. Okay. Who wants to do, like, a round of presentation or, like, just say what they did? Raise your hand.

好，我们简单点。 谁想再继续聊一聊， 然后就，呃，做一下头脑风暴， 想想点子？ 举手。 也许我说几句。 就想发想直接在这聊的。

Still no one. Okay. That's, uh, interesting. Just very interesting. Okay, yeah, say something.

好。 谁想做一轮，比如说， 演示，或者就直接说说 他们做了什么？ 举手。 还是没人。

I'm thinking about when we make this website, we set rules, and one rule is that we present them, and another is that we need to impose on the site users, a way for viewers to experience it. And how to make that more obvious, I think is that there needs to be interaction. Not just viewing, viewing is when we apply a force to it,

好。 这，呃，挺有意思。 真的很有意思。 好，对，说点什么。 就是我在想我们做这个网站，我们制定规则而且规则一个是我们去展现，另一个是我们需要施加给网站使用者、观看者的一个方式。而如何让这个变得更明显，就是我觉得是要有互动。而不仅仅是观看，观看它是我们对它施加一个力，

the smallest possible interaction. I think we can create some, uh, for example, search functions, or some other kind of features. And when they try to use the site to do something, we can restrict them. And at that point, I think our rules are more, uh, I'm not sure how to put it, but it feels like we connect with them more during the process.

最小的互动。我觉得我们可以制作一些，呃，比如说搜索功能，或者什么其他功能吗？然后而在当它们试图使用这个网站做点什么的时候，我们去限制它们。 然后这个时候我觉得我们的规则就比较，呃，我不好说，就是感觉就是会跟它们发生更多的连接在这个过程中。

I'm thinking, but it doesn't necessarily have to be searching for something, but it definitely is, I think if it's just viewing, the connection you get is relatively small. Between the two.

我在想，但是也不一定是要搜索什么东西，但是肯定是，我觉得只是观看的话，它产生的联系比较小。 两者之间。

I'll say it. Hmm? Mmhmm. You finish.

我说。 嗯？ 嗯。

Right. Yeah. So this would be, um, let's see,

你说完。 对。

yeah, that would be kind of— that would be in the part, in the— in the middle part of the arrangement, yeah? Kind of how do you order— how you order material, how it can be perceived, yeah? Interactive, for example. Um, uh, any kind of system that you want to build, how it's— how it's going to be displayed.

对。 所以这个会是，呃，我看看，

Um, also how it can be removed, for example. That— that could also be interesting, you know? That— that users— users can— I mean, in Reddit, for example, people vote stuff up, but you can also maybe vote things out, like Big Brother kind of system or something like that. And, I mean, what— okay, like, today, uh, we just have to brainstorm.

对，那会有点—— 会在那一部分， 在——在布局的中间位置，对吧？ 就是你要怎么排列—— 你怎么整理素材， 它可以怎么被感知，对吧？ 比如说互动式的。 嗯，呃，任何一种系统 你想要搭建的， 它会——会怎么展示出来。

We can use AIs and say, "Hey, um, use Big Brother idea, use, uh, this idea, this idea, this TV show, this stuff, this system, this, uh, uh, uh, political system, this thing, this." And make a mix. Make me a mix. I— I— that's how I would do it. I would take this catalog that I— let me show it to you quickly.

嗯，还有它怎么被移除， 比如说。 那——那也可能很有意思，你知道吧？ 那——那用户——用户可以—— 我是说，比如在 Reddit 上， 人们会把东西投票表决， 但你也可以把一些东西投票排除掉， 比如 Big Brother 那种系统之类的。 然后，我是说，什么——好， 比如说，今天，呃，我们只需要头脑风暴。

Uh, no, it's— yeah, yeah, here. Um, maybe I can show it like that, a little bit. So I have an idea.

我们可以用 AI 来说， "嘿，嗯，用 Big Brother 的想法， 用，呃，这个想法、这个想法， 这个电视剧、这些东西， 这个系统、这个，呃，呃，呃， 政治体系、这个东西、这个。" 然后做个混搭。 给我做个混搭。 我——我——我会这么做。 我会拿这个目录，我—— 我快速给你看一下。

Um, just— just. Really roughly. Um, I would definitely do it that way, yeah? That's the most— that's the most— that's like a hyper contemporary way of, of, of working with, uh, with a system. Because— because you— you can have— you can have hundreds of external brains and hundreds of, like, systems and layers and structures and databases

呃，不是，是——对对，就在这儿。 嗯，也许我可以那样展示， 稍微一点。 这样我就有个想法了。

you can access and stuff that you don't even know. And you just point to something, and you can say, "Go there, do a research into— into, um, I don't know, television formats from the 1950s." You know? And then bring it back, and, um, build something with that. Build a— build one of the— one of the lay— one of the layers

嗯，就——就。 非常粗略地。 嗯，我肯定会那样做，对吧？ 那是最——那是最—— 那算是一种超现代的方式， 用来、用来、用来和，呃， 和一个系统一起工作。 因为——因为你——你可以—— 你可以有成百上千个外部大脑， 还有成百上千个，比如说，系统， 以及层次、结构和数据库，

that we want to do. Build that with that. And may— in the— in the end, make one sentence. You know, that defines it. That's how I would do that stuff. And that's how we do stuff, right? Um, so the brainstorming is super important because you're talking about stuff. I— I— I found the most important— the most exciting stuff was happening

你可以访问，还有一些东西， 你甚至都不知道。 然后你只是指向某个东西， 你就可以说："去那里， 去研究——研究，嗯， 我不知道，比如电视节目形式， 从 1950 年代开始。" 你懂吧？ 然后再把它带回来， 然后，嗯，用它来做点东西。 做一个——做其中一个—— 其中一个层——其中一个层，

when you talked about the two different threads and the color of feces or something like that. That was like, what was that? That was— that was totally absurd. And— and that— that's how— that's— that works, right? Because if you can combine, uh, a color scheme with an organizational chart, that's where it gets interesting.

就是我们想做的那个。 用它把它搭起来。 然后也许——最后——最终， 写成一句话。 你知道，那就定义了它。 我会这样做这些东西。 我们就是这样做事的，对吧？ 嗯，所以头脑风暴非常重要， 因为你在谈论各种东西。 我——我——我觉得最重要的—— 最令人兴奋的事情发生在

That's where it gets, uh, artistically interesting. Sys— systematically interesting.

当你谈到两条不同的主线时， 还有粪便的颜色之类的。 那就像，那是什么来着？ 那——那完全荒唐。 而且——而且那——那就是—— 那——那才行，对吧？ 因为如果你能把，呃， 一套色系和一张组织图表结合起来， 那才会变得有意思。

So I'm— so we are on the right— we are on the right— we are on the right course. We are on direction. Because there is not one way to do it. Yeah? You all— I saw the discussion that you had, and it was brilliant. It was perfect. It was exactly what happens. And what should happen. Yeah? So I suggest, uh, yeah, other—

那才会变得，呃，更有艺术性。 系统——系统性地有意思。

other things. Talk if you want to, please. What you— what if you want to say something about what you did.

所以我——所以我们走在正确的—— 我们走在正确的——我们走在正确的路上。 我们有方向。 因为这不是只有一种做法。 对吧？你们——我看到你们的讨论， 而且非常精彩。 完美无缺。 就是那种情况。 以及应该发生的事。 对吧？ 所以我建议，呃，对，还有其他——

Do you want to say— yeah, go on. Well— what you do when you—

其他东西。 想聊的话请说。 你——如果你想说点什么， 关于你做了什么。

Just now, that thing— you.

你想说——对，你继续。 嗯——你在——的时候会做什么—— 刚刚那个，你。

How should I put it? Um, I thought I'd quickly tell you a few things.

我想要怎么说。 嗯，我说我想一下子几只跟你说。

Haha, who put me— Okay.

哈哈，谁把我。

Mm. Because he needs time to think. Yeah, think. It's fine. You can just— we can just not say anything for a minute and you think. That's absolutely fine.

好。 嗯。

Mm.

因为他需要时间思考。 对，思考。 没关系。 你可以就——我们可以暂时什么都不说， 一会儿你再想。 完全没问题。 嗯。

I think what's actually more important is to— Think about its basic process. For example, if I'm going to make this website, then, uh. For instance, I was just— Please.

我觉得其实比较重要的是去。 想一下它的基础流程。比如说我要做这个网站，那么，呃。 例如说我刚刚在。

When I searched for AI,

请。 搜索AI的时候，

one solution it gave me was about— I opened this website, and then I wanted to look at it, or I wanted to watch a video, or before opening this image, I had to go through a whole process. For example, I needed to play a game, and see if I could clear it, then decide whether I could go watch it. And if I didn't clear it,

它给我的1个方案是关于说。 我打开这个网站，然后我要去看，或者说我要去观看视频，或者说去打开这个图片之前，我要经历一列流程。比如说我需要去玩一个游戏，然后能不能通关，然后决定我能不能去看它。 然后如果不通关的话，

then I couldn't watch it, or I had to use another way to watch it. This kind of processbased thing, I think we should think of it as a process. Not to start thinking about things first. This might be a later stage thing. Because we keep thinking about those kinds of, uh, very fictional things, but I feel they're not even the foundational structure.

我就不能看它，或者说要放另外一个方式去看它。 的这种流程性的一个东西，我觉得我们应该想的是一个流程。 而不是去想一些先不是去想一些。这个可能是后期的。因为我们老是去想一些那种，呃，很虚构可那个东西其实我感觉都不是它的基础架构。

Because we, uh, just threw it into space. And say we've already decided this process, whether I want to finish it or not, this game, and once we have these rules, then think whether the game should be replaced with something better, a different way to open it, and then think about those things. So we should first set the process.

因为我们，呃，太空放了。 然后比如说我们想好了这个流程，我要先让它完或者不完，这个游戏，然后有这个规则了之后，再去想完或不完这个游戏是否应该置换成另外一种更好的，一个打开方式，再去想这些东西。 所以我们应该是先制定流程。

Or what I was just thinking is, actually, if you say we want to— kind of align with something more, we could even do anything, meaning after we decide on this process, any decision we make during the process, or anything that lets you choose this video, or a channel to watch this video,

然后或者我刚刚想的是，其实我们如果你说要跟，好像做一些东西更接轨一点，我们甚至可以任何，就是我们决定了这个流程之后，然后任何东西流程中做的任何决定，或者任何让你能去选择这个视频，或者去观看这个视频的一个通道，

let AI decide all of that. For example, if AI says, "Oh, you should finish this question before watching the video," or if AI throws this thing at you, and you play this game and then watch the video, AI tells you to do anything and then come back to watch the video, something like that. Because I'm the one who decides. I'm the decisionmaker,

都让AI来决定。比如说AI说，哦，你应该回答完这个问题才能再来看这个视频，或者说AI抛给你这个东西，让你玩这个游戏再来看这个视频，AI让你做任何事情再回来看这个视频之类的一个。因为我是决定者。 我才是决定者，

you already said I'm the director. So I set the rules, whether you like watching or not. So I think we should first set a process, then the director thinks of an idea, how he wants to present it. And then move on from there. That's one suggestion. Mm. I'm not saying it's, uh, vague. Because I feel what everyone says is sometimes way too vague. Brilliant. Yeah. Wonderful. This is the middle thing. You're like the curatorcollector process. Process is the middle layer.

你都说了我才是导演。 所以我制定规则，你爱看不看。 所以我觉得我们先制定一个流程，然后再导演去想一个想法，他想怎么呈现。 然后再去后续。这是一个建议。 嗯。 我不是说，呃，模糊模糊的。因为我觉得大家讲的有时候都太太模糊。

Mm. And it's you. We cannot attack something. I understand this is, yeah, it's so abstract in a way. I'm so concrete on the other way. Um, we can attack the whole thing through, uh, through the middle layer, through the process.

太棒了。 对。 太好了。 这就是中间的那个点。 你就像一个策展人收藏者的过程。 过程是中间那一层。 嗯。

We can attack it from the director. And, uh, systems. Um, perspective. Or you can also attack it from the, attack it from the artistproducerworker perspective. And I actually think it might be a good idea, I mean, when I heard you talk, I thought, yeah, you're more a systems person, you know, thinking about the system,

而且那就是你。 我们不能去攻击某个东西。 我明白这很......对，从某种意义上说太抽象了。 但从另一面我很具体。 嗯，我们可以从......呃， 通过中间层、通过过程来攻击整个东西。

how it could work. You said you're more in the process, like the middle layer. You were clearly saying you're more interested in the artistic part and the working part. So maybe it's a good idea to do that now, you know, because then I can assign each group this questionnaire where you just have to say,

我们可以从导演的角度来攻击。 以及......呃，系统。 嗯，视角。 或者你也可以从......的角度来攻击， 从艺术家制片人工作者的视角来攻击。 而且我其实觉得这可能是个好主意， 我是说，当我听你讲的时候， 我就想，对，你更偏系统类的人， 你知道，就是去思考系统，

yeah, this and this process I'm interested in, this and this and this and that. And you don't have to do everything. I think that would be a good idea. Um, about what you said, did I understand right? Um, because I have this problem with Bilibili that I cannot watch a fucking video because I need to register.

它可能会怎么运作。 你说你更偏向流程， 就像中间那一层。 你明确地说你更感兴趣的是 艺术部分和制作工作部分。 所以也许这是个好主意， 现在就这么做，你知道， 因为这样我就能给每个组分配 这个问卷，你只需要说，

And in the night, I can, and every time after 30 seconds it comes that boom, and I don't have a Chinese phone number, and then I have to, I can continue watching, but I always have to click. So it's just not usable. Um, and internet art in the 1990s did exactly stuff like that. Yeah? We did websites

对，我对这个过程感兴趣， 还有这个、这个、还有那个。 而且你不必什么都做。 我觉得那会是个好主意。 嗯，关于你刚才说的， 我理解得对吗？ 嗯，因为我有个问题， 就是 Bilibili 那边我没法看 他妈的视频，因为我需要注册。

that you couldn't watch because there were so many popups. I wanted to show you, but it's not really working. Um, uh, a website made so many popups that you could never close them. Every time you closed them, there's 10 new ones. Yeah? So the art was not in the watching of the thing that they showed,

而且在夜里我也可以， 而且每次过了 30 秒就会有那种"砰"一下， 而且我没有中国的电话号码， 然后我就得......我可以继续看， 但我总得点一下。 所以就是没法用。 嗯，而且 1990 年代的网络艺术 正是做过类似的事情。 对吧？我们做过网站，

but it was in this process of, um, annoying you to a level where they clearly showed they have control over your behavior because you cannot control what they are doing. It's like a punk move. Did you mean something like that in terms of the process that you said? Or did I completely misunderstand?

你看不了，因为弹窗太多了。 我本来想给你看，但其实不太管用。 嗯，呃，一个网站弹窗太多了， 你根本关不掉。 每次你关掉它， 就会出现 10 个新的。 对吧？所以艺术并不在于观看， 而是在于他们展示的东西，

You have a similarity of 60. There's a 60% similarity. That's 60. Oh, okay. That's pretty good. Because what I'm seeing more and more, this is actually very, very, uh, very exciting is what I see more and more now working with a translator that is, could be quite quite. Good in the sense of you can translate sentences that kind of make sense. And yesterday I had a long conversation

而是在于这个过程，嗯， 把你烦到一种程度， 他们明明展示了他们掌控着 你的行为，因为你无法控制 他们在做什么。 这就像一招 punk 招式。 你说的过程，你是指类似这样的东西吗？ 就是你刚才提到的？ 还是说我完全理解错了？ 你有一个分是60的相似度。 有60%的相似度。

with your professor, Liu Ke, and for the first time in my life, I could talk to him. And I saw the cultural differences so big that I had an understanding of 50, 60 percent, although I could literally read what he was saying. So if I reverse that now and I think, how do you understand what the fuck I am saying

那是 60。 哦，好。 这挺不错的。 因为我越来越看到的是， 这其实非常非常，呃，非常令人兴奋， 我现在越来越常看到的是， 在和一位翻译一起工作， 可能会相当相当...... 好在你可以翻译一些句子， 而且还挺有道理的。 昨天我和你聊了很久，

also. Probably with 50, 60 percent. And we are talking about extremely complicated things. Yeah, we talk about structures and systems and the transcending of art into a level and using hyper modern AI technologies with super innovative concepts that nobody has done before. In two different languages,

和你的教授 Liu Ke， 而且这是我这辈子第一次， 能和他聊天。 我看到文化差异非常大， 以至于我理解有 50%、60% 的差别， 尽管我真的能读懂他在说什么。 所以如果我现在把这反过来想， 你怎么理解我他妈在说什么，

with completely different cultural backgrounds. So it's not only the languages the difference, but it's also the cultural background. Which, and there, by the way, until now you really need human translators. Because they can do that better than machines. Yeah? Machines will be able to do that soon.

也是。 大概也就是 50%、60% 的差别。 而我们说的是极其复杂的东西。 对，我们谈的是结构和系统， 以及艺术如何被提升到某个层次， 并使用超现代的 AI 技术， 带着超级创新的概念， 这是以前没人做过的。 用两种不同的语言，

It's, it'll, it'll happen. Yeah. So is it okay if we do that? Because, um, yeah, we only have 20 minutes and we need to, we need to assign. Um, so we have these three groups.

而且文化背景完全不同。 所以不只是语言的差异， 还有文化背景的差异。 而且顺便说一句， 直到现在你真的需要人工翻译。 因为他们做得比机器更好。 对吧？机器很快就能做到这一点。

And I want, um, Uh, here.

它会、会、会发生的。 对。 那我们这样做可以吗？ 因为，呃，对，我们只有 20 分钟， 而且我们需要、我们需要分配。 嗯，所以我们有这三组。

So this is not good. These are not good words. Focus on that. So we have the material producing people, the people who think about the process here. Yeah? The frequencies or the memes or the feeds or how the, how this process is done, how it, how it could interact or not and all this kind of things.

我想，呃，呃，在这里。

And then there is the people who write the rules and set the structure of the whole, of the whole organization, of the whole thing. So am I, is it okay for you to be, for you to be in the, is, oh, you want, you want to, you want to do system. What, what, what is your, yeah, tell me. You can selfassign.

所以这不太好。 这些不是好词。 把注意力放在那上面。 所以我们有制造材料的人， 还有那些在思考流程的人。 对吧？ 频率、梗图、信息流， 或者这个流程是怎么做的， 它如何、如何会互动或不会互动， 以及这些类似的东西。

I'm not going to tell what you have to do.

然后还有那些写规则的人， 并设定整体的结构， 整个组织、整个东西的结构。 所以我是问，你这样可以吗， 就是你在这个...... 是，哦，你想，你想要， 你想做系统。 你、你、你的是什么，对， 告诉我。 你可以自我分配。

But I think what we just talked about might lean more toward writing rules or defining a process. Yeah, yeah. I see the process in the middle, not, not, not that much here. I mean, yeah, decide process. It's not, this is AIgenerated shit. It's not perfect.

我不会告诉你该做什么。 但是我觉得我们刚刚讲的可能比较偏向于写规则之类的话，或定流程。

Um, the, the design of the organization and its idea is something else than the process. Of how we are going to manage the, let's say, images. Are the images going to be, for example, is it a system that has thousands of images in there, but the user can interact with the system, but they will never see one image.

对，对。 我把流程放在中间， 不、不、不会在这里那么多。 我是说，对，决策流程。 这不是那种 AI 生成的垃圾。 它不完美。

You know, that is one kind of way of doing something like that. Artistically. It's, it's the first step that you take. This is like a dialectic way. Usually, dialectics is an old philosophical system it's a system of thinking and, and, and a way of productive thinking. It's just you take the first thing

嗯，组织的设计， 以及它的理念，和流程是两回事。 关于我们要如何管理， 比如说，图片。 这些图片会不会，比如说， 是不是一个系统里有成千上万张图片， 但用户可以与系统互动， 可他们永远看不到某一张图。

the hype, the, the thesis it's we're going to build a system and people are going to interact with it that can see images. And then you say the opposite. We build a, we build a no system that people can not interact and they cannot see images. So when you have these two things that are the opposite of each other,

你知道，这算是一种方式， 用来做类似这样的东西。 从艺术角度来说。 这、这是你迈出的第一步。 这有点像一种辩证法。 通常，辩证法是一种古老的哲学体系， 它是一种思考体系， 也是一种有效思考的方式。 就是你先拿第一个东西，

and the product is the synthesis is when you bring these two together. Anybody studied philosophy? Philosophy a little bit. Huh? A little bit. Then you know dialectics, right? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, why? Do you learn it in school? Oh, good. Then you all know it.

那个热点、那个、那个论点， 我们要建立一个系统， 人们会与它互动， 能够看到图片。 然后你再反过来说。 我们建一个、我们建一个"没有系统"， 让人们无法互动， 也无法看到图片。 所以当你有这两种东西时， 它们彼此是相反的，

Then I'm, I'm It is a basic course. Basic teaching. Okay, okay. Then you have, then you know more about it than I do. But I use it more than you do, probably.

而产品是综合体， 就是把这两者合在一起。 有人学过哲学吗？ 哲学学过一点。 啊？ 一点点。 那你就懂辩证法了，对吧？ 对。 对。 哦，为什么？ 你是在学校学的吗？ 哦，好。 那你们都懂了。

Why is it more important than him? I don't know.

这是一门基础课。 基础教学。 好，好。 那你就会更了解， 比我更懂。 但我可能用得比你更多。 怎么就比他重要？

This reaction is actually a serious illness. No, no, that's a misunderstanding. I didn't say I'm more important than dialectics.

我不知道。 这个反应其实是大病。

I... Okay, go on, go on. Same man, same more, really strange things.

不不，那是个误会。 我没说我比辩证法更重要。 我。

I'm saying this translation is a big change. Now it's not good. It's, it's a.

好，继续，继续。 同一个人，同样的、更多、非常奇怪的东西。 我说这个翻译是大变动的。

It's a big change. It's, this is. Yeah, it's shit. Yeah. Fuck you.

现在不好了。 这、这是一个...... 是大变。

are we going to stop this shit now?

这、这个。 对，这太烂了。 对。 去你妈的。

-- Okay.

我们现在要不要停这破事？

Hello. What do you— Do you say "你好" to each other when you see each other, or is there like "ciao" or like another word, like you say hello? Yeah. No, we say— We say hello. Hi. Say hi. Hi. Say hi. Hi. Yeah, I have one question. It's just a quick question. Why the fuck— Football. Like, why the fuck— Football, NBA, all these, like, things

好的。 你好。

from America are, like, everywhere here. Why is it so important? I don't understand.

你要—— 你们会互相说"你好"吗 当你们见面的时候， 还是会有类似"ciao"这种说法， 或者别的词， 比如你们会说"你好"吗？ 嗯。 不，我们说—— 我们说"你好"。 嗨。 说"你好"。 你好。 说"你好"。 你好。 嗯，我有个问题。 就是个小问题。 到底为什么—— 足球。 就是，到底为什么—— 足球、NBA，这些东西，

Like, maybe just not really important to us, but to others. Oh, like— Uhhuh. You think it's like a marketing thing?

从美国到这边，几乎到处都是。 为什么这么重要？ 我不明白。

Uhhuh. Not for you personally, you mean? Yeah. Okay, yeah. Our— Yeah. Yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah. No, it's— I— It's just— Anyway.

可能对我们来说并不那么重要， 但对别人就很重要。 哦，比如—— 嗯哼。 你觉得这像是营销吗？

Um, so.

嗯哼。 你是说不是针对你个人的？ 对。 好，嗯。 我们—— 嗯。 嗯嗯，好。 嗯。 不，是—— 我—— 就是—— 总之。

Yeah, today we're going to— I'll show you quickly. So this is a little bit around, but we're going to do a short lecture today, a short discussion, then we take a quick break. And then we really going to work, because we have— Um, tomorrow, on Sunday, because on Saturday we go on an excursion, right?

嗯，所以。

Yeah. So, uh, we have basically today to set it up, and then two days to actually work on it, which is fine. It's no problem. You know, we are quick, and young, and smart, and everything. Um, yeah, and then we'll— We'll don't do that. We'll just do a work session, but this includes a discussion, because we're going to work together in a way.

嗯，今天我们要—— 我快速给你们演示一下。 所以这里会稍微绕一绕， 但我们今天会做一个简短的讲座， 一个简短的讨论， 然后我们短暂休息一下。 然后我们才会真正开始工作， 因为我们有—— 嗯，明天，星期天， 因为周六我们要去郊游，对吧？

Yeah? So we're going to all be here, but you're going to kind of work on your own, or with other people, but also we're going to sometimes talk, or I'm going to talk with you, or everybody quickly together something. Let's see how it works. It's an— Again, let's say it's an experiment. So, um, let's see.

对。 所以，呃，基本上今天要把它搭建起来， 然后还有两天要真正做它， 这也没问题。 完全没问题。 你知道，我们很快， 还很年轻、很聪明，什么都有。 嗯，对，然后我们会—— 我们不会那样做。 我们就做一次工作环节， 但这里面会包含讨论， 因为我们会以某种方式一起工作。

Okay, so, uh, let's jump into the topic I want to cover today. Uh, it's called the charter. So I want to talk again about the irony. Because I think it's super important, in terms of vibe and feel. Uh, I want to talk about accountability. That also I talked about yesterday. So I'm basically— what I'm doing today

对吧？ 所以我们都会在这里， 但你会有点自己独立做， 或者和其他人一起， 不过我们有时也会聊聊天， 或者我会跟你聊， 或者大家一起快速做点什么。 我们看看它怎么运作。 这是一个——再说一次，就当它是一个实验。 所以，嗯，我们看看。

is kind of emphasizing what was important yesterday, because I think yesterday we covered a lot of important things. And, uh, and then we're going to talk about the rules of the entity that leads us then into the— into the practical part, yeah? Certainly.

好，那么，呃，我们进入这个话题吧。 这是我今天想讲的。 呃，它叫"宪章"。 所以我想再谈一次这种讽刺。 因为我觉得这非常重要， 就氛围和感觉而言。 呃，我想谈谈责任。 这个我昨天也提过。 所以基本上——我今天要做的是

So.

强调昨天重要的事情， 因为我觉得昨天我们讲了很多重要的内容。 然后，呃，我们还要谈谈 那个主体的规则，它会把我们带到 实际部分——实际部分，对吧？ 当然。

Yeah, so, um, yeah, yesterday we went into the orchestration layer. So we have the foundational, hard— hardware, hardcore layer. We have the application, user interface layer. And we have this middle layer. Yeah? We said that power is not in the surface, and it's not in the bottom. It's somewhere there in this orchestration middle.

所以。

In the rules. Yeah? The standards. The protocols. So today we're going to stay in that layer. We're going to work in that layer. And, uh, we do something that is harder. We're going to write the rules ourselves. For our entity, or our organization, or what it is. Yeah?

对，所以，呃，对，昨天我们进入了 协调层。 所以我们有基础的、硬——硬件， 还有更硬核的层。 还有应用、用户界面层。 我们还有这个中间层。 对吧？我们说过，权力不在表面， 也不在底层。 它在协调的中间某个位置。

And also I really try to define it, because you have seen what I sent through, through WeChat. Yeah? This entity, or this organization, institution. And it's— it's not really definable. Yeah? Because we can make it up ourselves.

在规则里。对吧？ 标准。 协议。 所以今天我们会停留在那个层面。 我们会在那个层面上工作。 然后，呃，我们做一些更难的事情。 我们要自己写规则。 为了我们的主体，或者我们的组织， 或者不管它到底是什么。 对吧？

So before we write, or we think, or we do, I want to talk about the problem. And it's a problem that lives exactly where you live in the meme. Yeah? The meme is the most efficient vibe machine ever built. Yeah? One image, one sound. One second, three seconds, and inside it there are, like, so many layers

而且我也会尽量把它定义清楚， 因为你们看到了我发给你们的内容， 通过 WeChat。 对吧？这个主体，或者这个组织、机构。 而且它——它其实不太能定义清楚。 对吧？ 因为我们可以自己编出来。

— ten layers of meaning, let's say. Yeah? If you're inside the culture, you read all ten instantaneously. Yeah? That's the vibe, that's the feel. You don't need time. You don't need to process. Yeah? No effort, no thinking. But if you're outside, that's what I explained when I look at the stuff that my— my kids show me for one second,

所以在我们写、思考或去做之前， 我想先谈谈问题。 而这个问题恰恰就存在于 你在这个梗图里所处的位置。 对吧？这个梗图是最高效的"氛围机器"， 有史以来建造过的。 对吧？一个图像，一个声音。 一秒钟、三秒钟， 而在里面，还有很多层次，

and I'm like, wow, no, show me, I want to read it, basically. Um, if you're outside, like me, you see nothing. I don't understand. I see— I see a picture of a frog. I mean, okay, I know what the frog means, but not really. Yeah? The green— the pepe the frog has so many layers. In— in meme culture. There are hundred thousand memes probably

——比如说，意义的十层。 对吧？如果你身处文化之中， 你会同时读完这十层。 对吧？那就是氛围，那就是感觉。 你不需要时间。 你不需要去处理。 对吧？不用努力，也不用思考。 但如果你在外面， 这就是我在看那些东西时解释的， 我的——我的孩子们给我看一秒钟的东西，

about the fucking frog. But yesterday we ate frog, right? Uh, yeah, we did. Poor frog.

我就会说，哇，不，给我看看， 我基本上就想读它。 嗯，如果你在外面，像我一样， 你什么都看不见。 我听不懂。 我看到——我看到一张青蛙的图片。 我的意思是，好吧，我知道那只青蛙是什么意思， 但其实不太懂。 对吧？那个绿色——那只青蛙的"pepe" 有很多层次。 在——在梗图文化里。 可能有几十万个梗图

But it was really tasty.

都在讲那该死的青蛙。 但昨天我们吃了青蛙，对吧？ 呃，对，我们吃了。 可怜的青蛙。

So, so you see a picture of a frog and you don't understand why anyone is laughing, or why anyone is frightened. And that is the power of the vibe, you know, the feel. The total legibility for insiders. Total invisibility for outsiders. Yeah, it's also a social thing, right? Yeah? It makes you belong to a group.

但真的很好吃。

It makes you knowledgeable. It makes you the— the knowers. The ones that know. The ones that possess this knowledge. And the other stone. So you can communicate hidden. Yeah? Very important in social media in China. Lots of, lots of hidden meanings under the— under some images. But I mean, the others who—

所以，你看到一张青蛙的图片 却不明白为什么有人在笑， 或者为什么有人在害怕。 这就是"氛围"的力量， 你知道的，那种感觉。 对内部人士来说完全可读。 对外部人士来说完全隐形。 对，这也是一种社交因素，对吧？ 对吧？它让你属于一个群体。

the ones who don't know, they're not stupid. They can catch up, right? And then you have to invent new vibes and new feels and new memes.

它让你更有知识。 它让你成为——成为"懂的人"。 那些懂的人。 那些拥有这份知识的人。 还有另一块石头。 所以你可以隐蔽地交流。 对吧？ 在中国社交媒体上非常重要。 有很多很多隐藏的含义 在——在某些图片下面。 但我的意思是，那些其他人——

And it goes deeper. So some memes are a reference to a reference. So we talked about that yesterday. You showed me, right? This one, uh, Billie Billie short video, or— or whatever. Your parents heard a song, or your grandparents heard a song one way, you hear the same song, but you also hear how they heard it.

那些不知道的人，并不蠢。 他们可以追上来，对吧？ 然后你就得发明新的氛围 新的感觉和新的梗图。

So the vibe is built from the distant— from this distance. The joke is not in the song. The joke is in the gap between the two generations listening or one generation looking at the other generation listening. And here is the danger. And this is where it stops to be funny. In Europe and America, it is a habit now.

而且它更深。 所以有些梗图是指向 某种指向。 所以我们昨天就谈过这个。 你给我看了，对吧？ 这个，呃，Billie Billie 的短视频， 或者——或者随便什么。 你父母听了一首歌， 或者你祖父母用一种方式听到一首歌， 你听到的也是同一首歌， 但你也听到了他们是怎么听到的。

People are not simply ironic. They're ir— they're ironic about being ironic. We also covered that, but I really want to emphasize that one more time. As I told you now, I think three times. That you need to hear something three times. In order to memorize it and really learn it. Or kind of have it in your head.

所以这种氛围是从远处—— 从这种距离开始构建的。 笑点不在歌里。 笑点在两代人之间的间隔里， 一代在听，或一代在看另一代在听。 而危险就在这里。 而这就是它不再好笑的地方。 在欧洲和美国，这已经成了习惯。

Or in your reality. That's why I do that. Yeah? So people are not simply ironic. They're ironic about being ironic about being ironic about being ironic second, third, fifth level, whatever. You can go endless. And the point is that this is not humor. Yeah? It's not funny. It's not meant as funny. It's a technique.

人们不再只是讽刺。 他们——他们对讽刺本身就很讽刺。 我们也谈过这个， 但我真的想强调的是， 再强调一次。 就像我刚才跟你说的， 我觉得大概三次。 你需要把某件事听三遍。 这样你才能记住它， 并且真正学会它。 或者说，让它在你脑子里。

It's a communication technique. And the point is escape. Because if I say something terrible, and you challenge me, I say something racist, or something misogynist, yeah, and you say, hey, why the fuck do you say that? I say, hey, hey, hey, I was just being ironic. And— and if you say no, you meant it.

或者在你的现实里。 所以我才会这么做。 对吧？ 所以人们不只是讽刺。 他们讽刺的是对讽刺本身， 对讽刺的讽刺，到第二、第三、第五层面， 随便怎么说。 你可以说个没完。 关键是，这不是幽默。 对吧？ 这不好笑。 它并不是为了好笑。 这是一种技巧。

I say, I was— I was being ironic about being ironic. And you cannot catch me. Yeah? So there's always one more layer to repeat into. This was a setup now. So now I'm going to deliver the argument. So a person can hold a harmful position, spread it, make it attractive, make it spread further. I never once be accountable for it.

这是一种沟通技巧。 关键在于逃避。 因为如果我说了很糟糕的话， 你来挑战我， 我说了什么种族主义的话， 或者什么厌女的话， 对吧，然后你说：喂，你他妈为什么要这么说？ 我说：喂喂喂，我只是讽刺一下。 而且——而且如果你说不， 那就是你是认真的。

And the layers are the alibi. Hey, I was not, uh, I was not there, and this person was murdered. I didn't say that, because I meant it different. You know? And so you have an alibi. You have an argument. But you have to understand what that means. It's important. I don't speak against irony. Irony is a really— it's an old human technique

我说，我——我是在讽刺， 就是关于讽刺这件事。 你抓不到我。 对吧？ 所以总会有一个更深层的层次可以再重复进去。 这就是一个铺垫。 所以现在我要来陈述这个论点。 所以一个人可以保持一种有害的立场， 把它传播开来，让它更有吸引力， 让它继续传播。 我从来不会为此负责。

of how we communicate and how is linguistic, uh, social technique. It's great. Wonderful. But you have to know how to use it. Yeah?

而这些层次就是借口。 喂，我当时不在，呃，我不在场， 而这个人被杀了。 我没这么说， 因为我的意思不一样。 你懂吧？ 所以你就有了借口。 你有一个论点。 但你得明白这意味着什么。 这很重要。 我不是反对讽刺。 讽刺其实是——它是人类古老的一种技巧，

So because it feels like freedom, the key word is ambiguity.

用来表达我们的方式，以及语言学方面， 呃，一种社会技巧。 这很棒。 太好了。 但你得知道怎么用它。 对吧？

Ambiguity meaning— Unclarity. Not so clear what you say. Could be that, could be that, and you also don't position yourself in that way you never have to be clear and you're not accountable. But we need to be accountable sometimes. Because if you are always— if you're always can say stuff, or do things,

所以因为它让人感觉像自由， 关键词就是"模糊"。

and if the police comes and says, look, that's against the law, you know, you cannot hurt someone, physically, that's not allowed, and you're like, no, it was a joke. It was fun, you know. No, I threw the stone from the highway bridge because you know, I meant it in an ironic way. It's not— I didn't want to harm anybody.

模糊的意思是—— 不清楚。 你说的不太清楚。 可能是这个，也可能是那个， 而且你也没有把自己放在 那种位置，你就不必一定要说清楚， 也不需要负责。 但有时候我们需要负责。 因为如果你总是—— 如果你总是能说出一些话， 或者做一些事，

It's like, no, no, no, police is not going to, uh, they're not going to accept that. Not in China, not in Europe, not in the US, nowhere. In the world. Because you're going to be held accountable. Because you did something so dangerous and someone could have died. Now, maybe this is a bad example, because we're talking about digital pictures of frogs.

而警察来了说， 你看，这违法， 你知道的，你不能伤害别人， 身体伤害是不允许的， 你就会说，不，那只是个玩笑。 只是好玩而已，你懂的。 不，我是从高速桥上扔了石头， 因为你知道，我是带着讽刺的意思说的。 不是——我不是想伤害任何人。

But it's not a bad example. The impact something like that can have on our society, on our mental health. Uh, on— on— on a lot of things. It's very, very hard— very high. Because we are living now in a hybrid reality. It's not anymore that there is like, yes, there's the digital space, and it's kind of, you know,

就像，呃，不不不，警察不会—— 他们不会接受这种事。 在中国不行，在欧洲不行，在美国也不行，哪儿都不行。 在全世界都不行。 因为你会被追究责任。 因为你做了非常危险的事， 可能会有人死亡。 现在，这可能是个不好的例子， 因为我们说的是青蛙的数字图片。

it's separated from the other space, and it's not really serious what you do there. That's not true. I— you know it. You— you are kids from the pandemic, right? You grew up in a time where you couldn't leave the house, and then you know, your family or your— your— your partner and then the people on the internet,

但这并不是个坏例子。 这种东西可能造成的影响， 会影响我们的社会、我们的心理健康。 呃，会——会——会影响很多事情。 这非常非常难——非常高。 因为我们现在生活在一种混合现实里。 已经不再是那种， 是的，有数字空间，然后就有点，你知道的，

and the communication over the internet, was everything you had. That was your reality. You can't tell me that that wasn't real. Yeah? And so I am— I used to think that reality— like in— like the digital world, like the internet, social media, and so on, is a— is kind of a different space but I— I even stopped thinking that.

它和其他空间分开了， 你在那里做的事其实并不严肃。 这不是真的。 我——你知道的。 你——你们是疫情后的孩子，对吧？ 你们是在一个你们无法离开家的时代长大的， 然后你知道，你的家人或者你——你——你的伴侣 再加上网上的那些人，

I— today I think it's the same space, with kind of different rooms. It's like a house and it has different rooms. And one room is a digital one, the other one is a social media, and the third one is— there are your grandparents, and the fourth one is your boyfriend or girlfriend in there, parents or something.

以及网络上的沟通， 就是你拥有的一切。 那就是你的现实。 你不能跟我说那不是真的。 对吧？ 所以我——我以前以为 现实——比如说——比如数字世界， 比如互联网、社交媒体等等， 是一种——算是不同的空间， 但我——我甚至不再这么想了。

Yeah?

我——今天我觉得这还是同一个空间， 只是房间有点不一样。 就像一栋房子，它有不同的房间。 其中一间是数字空间， 另一间是社交媒体， 第三间是—— 那里有你的祖父母， 第四间是你的男朋友或女朋友在里面， 父母之类的。

Anyway, so—

对吧？

Deniability— yeah, and ambiguity— is what also power uses when it wants to act without consequence. And we need to be able to hold people accountable. Politicians, bureaucracies, our— our— our friends, also our families, uh, we need to be able to, um, to trust, to a certain level, to what they say. Because otherwise they can do with us whatever they want.

总之，所以——

So it's not an argument against irony. Irony is a real artistic tool. I— I use it constantly. It's an argument for knowing what you're doing with it. And being willing to stand behind what you made when it lands in the world. And you can do both. You can be highly ironic— postironic. This is the artistic thing.

否认——对，还有模糊性—— 也是权力所利用的东西， 当它想不受后果影响地行动时。 而我们需要能够追究责任。 政治人物、官僚体系，我们——我们——我们的朋友， 还有我们的家人，呃， 我们需要能够，嗯，去信任， 在一定程度上，相信他们说的话。 否则他们就能随心所欲地对我们怎么做就怎么做。

Yeah? And you can use it. But as a person, you have to be able to be held accountable. You cannot always claim ambiguity.

所以这不是反对讽刺的论点。 讽刺是一种真正的艺术工具。 我——我一直在用它。 它是一种为了弄清你在拿它做什么的论点。 并且愿意为你做出的东西负责， 当它落到世界上之后。 而你可以两者兼顾。 你可以非常讽刺——讽刺之后的状态。 这就是艺术性的东西。

So is it okay from— from this— oh yeah, it's— it's okay. Yeah? So I'm going to— oh yeah, I'm always bad with the— With this— yeah, but it's not so important. The important stuff is later. So remind me that I show that when we talk about the— the— the project we're working on now. Yeah?

对吧？ 而且你可以用它。 但作为一个人，你必须能够 被追究责任。 你不可能总是主张模糊性。

So now we're going to go there. Yeah? So yeah, quickly, I— I talked about that. We talked about that yesterday. Yeah? Uh, so I'm going to bring it back now to the entity or— I don't have a word. Uh, for it. It's not important. That's— just call it entity or a thing. This entity will publish. That's— that's what we decided on, right?

所以从——从这个——来说可以吗—— 哦对，没事——没事。 对吧？ 所以我要——哦对， 我总是很不擅长—— 这个——对， 但这没那么重要。 重要的事情是后面再说。 所以提醒我一下，我会展示那个， 当我们谈到——那个——那个项目时， 就是我们现在正在做的那个。 对吧？

And we're going to have some fields, memes, whatever, media things that it's going to publish. That's the interface. It'll put material into the world. Memes, images, sound, video, text, and it's arranged by rules that we write. And that's the job today. Not to finish that, but to think what rules are we going to set

所以现在我们要讲到那里。 对吧？ 所以，是的，简单说，我——我刚才提到了那个。 我们昨天谈过那个。 对吧？ 呃，所以我现在要把它拉回来， 回到那个实体，或者—— 我找不到一个词。 呃，用它来形容。 这不重要。 那个——就叫它实体，或者说是一个东西。 这个实体会发布。 这——这是我们决定的，对吧？

in place for this entity. And we can design that. In order to publish things. Yeah? What is being published, what is not being published. This is the first rule. What is being accepted? I'll talk about that later.

然后我们会有一些字段、梗图， 反正各种媒体内容，它都会发布。 那就是界面。 它会把内容投放到世界上。 梗图、图片、声音、视频、文字， 而且是按我们写的规则来排列的。 而这就是今天的任务。 不是去把它做完，而是去思考 我们要设定哪些规则，

So the moment it publishes, yeah, these questions become actually real, and then it becomes— and now you understand why I talk about, uh, accountability and ambiguity and irony but especially accountability. Yeah? Because in the moment we publish these questions become real. Who made this? Who is responsible for what it does?

让这个实体得以落实。 而我们可以设计这个。 用来发布东西。 对吧？ 什么在发布，什么没有发布。 这是第一条规则。 什么被接受？ 我之后再说。

Is the entity ironic? If someone reads it wrong, is that the reader's failure or is it our fault? Can a member hide behind— behind the entity? So if you say, I want to do my own artworks and publish them, for example, um, but there will be so many other things. And suddenly there is something really horrible next to

所以一旦它发布，对，这些问题 就真的变成现实了，然后它就变成—— 现在你明白我为什么要说，呃， 关于责任、模糊性和讽刺 但尤其是责任。 对吧？ 因为一旦我们发布这些问题， 它们就变成现实。 这是谁做的？ 它做的事情谁负责？

what you did, which is maybe totally nice. Are you going to be happy then when your name is underneath or not? This is, for example, a question. If you're good with it, fine. If not, we have to systematically think about how to deal with that. Hm? Um, I— I just use you as an example now because you— you talked, huh?

这个实体是讽刺的吗？ 如果有人读错了， 那是读者的失误， 还是我们的错？ 会不会有成员能躲在——躲在实体背后？ 所以如果你说，我想做我自己的艺术作品， 并把它们发布出来， 比如说，嗯，但还会有很多其他因素。 然后突然之间，旁边就出现了某种非常可怕的东西，

But everybody has their own position and what they want to do. And that's exactly going to be worked into this system that we're going to do. If he— if he succeeds. We don't know. Maybe it's going to be a huge fuckup and we just learned a lot, but we didn't produce really something. But that's not going to happen, actually.

和你做的事情并不一样，这也许完全没问题。 那你会不会很开心， 当你的名字在下面出现时，还是不会？ 比如说，这就是一个问题。 如果你觉得这样可以，那就好。 如果不行，我们就得系统地思考 该怎么处理这个问题。 嗯？ 嗯，我——我现在只是拿你举个例子， 因为你——你说了，对吧？

It's impossible. Um, so where am I? So who made this? Who is responsible for what it does? Is the— yeah. These are not the qu— these are not questions of taste. It's not about how something looks or what it says or something like that. You cannot solve them by having good intentions. They are questions of governance.

但每个人都有自己的立场和想做什么。 而这正是要被融入到这个系统里的， 也就是我们要做的那个系统。 如果他——如果他成功。 我们不知道。 也许这会是一场巨大的砸锅烂锅， 而我们也学到了很多， 但我们并没有真正产出什么东西。 但其实这不会发生。

Yeah? They go into a document, and that document is the artwork. It's like a constitution. Yeah?

这是不可能的。 嗯，那我现在说到哪了？ 那么，这是谁做的？ 它做的事情谁负责？ 是不是——对。 这些不是——这些不是品味问题。 这不是关于某样东西长什么样， 也不是关于它写了什么之类的。 你不能靠好意来解决这些问题。 这些是治理的问题。

So this constitution— and we're going to see it here. I'm going to— I'm going to do a little thing. So the document is the artwork. That's important now to think about. That's today we want to have a document that is not finished but that is there and that has a structure and information and rules in it.

对吧？ 它们会写进一份文档里， 而那份文档就是作品本身。 它就像一部宪法。 对吧？

Think about what a standard is. Yeah? So the shipping container, I talked about it yesterday. Somebody sat in a room and decided. 20 feet fucking stupid. 20 feet. And it must have been an American, right? 20 feet or 40 feet, which is, uh, 20 feet is about by 3 is about, uh, 6 meters. And 40 feet is about 12 meters.

所以这部宪法——我们会在这里看到它。 我要——我要做个小动作。 所以这份文档就是作品。 现在这一点很重要，要去思考。 也就是说，今天我们希望有一份文档，它还没完成， 但它已经存在，并且有结构， 里面有信息和规则。

Yeah? That decision reorganized global trade. Reorganized ports. Reorganized labor. Reorganized where things are made on this planet. It's crazy. One person or a team of people. The impact it has on the world, the footprint that they leave on the world, is immense. It has so many consequences. Maybe they were really stupid people.

想想什么是标准。 对吧？ 所以说到这个运输集装箱，我昨天提到过。 有人坐在一个房间里做了决定。 20英尺，真他妈蠢。 20英尺。 而且肯定是个美国人，对吧？ 20英尺或者40英尺， 也就是，呃，20英尺大概乘以3， 大概，呃，6米。 而40英尺大概12米。

You know? They had a good idea. Yeah? But maybe they didn't think it through. They just, like, yeah, let's do that. Probably half— probably it's halfhalf. Because you cannot think something like that through. They could not have imagined what happened in the Pearl River Delta in 2000, 2010. That's not imaginable in the 50s, 1950s.

对吧？ 这个决定重组了全球贸易。 重组了港口。 重组了劳动力。 重组了这个星球上产出的东西。 太离谱了。 一个人或一支团队。 它对世界的影响， 他们在世界上留下的足迹， 是巨大的。 它带来太多后果。 也许他们真的是很蠢的人。

For me, still, it's impossible to imagine. It's so crazy. Ah, or the ISO standard. Yeah? The ISO standard is just standardizes everything. You know, like the— the— the paper sizes, the— the— the everything. Like— like how— you can— The— whatever. Whatever you want. Yeah? And then the USBC, for example,

你知道吗？ 他们有个好主意。 对吧？ 但也许他们没想清楚。 他们就像，嗯，那就这么做吧。 大概一半——大概是五五开。 因为你没法把这种事想透。 他们不可能想象会发生什么， 在2000年、2010年的珍珠河三角洲。 在50年代、1950年代，这根本想不到。

could be part of the ISO standard. It's its own standard. Yeah?

对我来说，直到现在也很难想象。 太离谱了。 啊，或者说ISO标准。 对吧？ ISO标准就是把一切都标准化了。 你知道，比如纸张尺寸， 还有——所有东西。 比如——比如你怎么——你可以—— 那——随便吧。 你想要什么都行。 对吧？ 然后比如说USBC，

And then we have, uh, for example, WiFi has a protocol, has a format. Has a charter. And so on. Um, anyway. We don't have to go too deep into that because we want to talk about that.

也可能是ISO标准的一部分。 它是它自己的标准。 对吧？

And nobody calls these people artists? Why not? They are fucking creators. Yeah? But they did what artists claim to do. They changed how reality is arranged. So today we sit in this room and we write a document. Yeah? And this entity needs a name, but we can do that later. Or now, we can— it needs a charter.

然后我们还有，呃，比如WiFi， 有它的协议，有它的格式。 还有章程。 等等。 嗯，总之。 我们不用讲得太深入， 因为我们想聊这个。

Yeah? That's like the constitution. That's one paragraph. It just says what is it and what is it for. And we know what it is, right? But we have to find a— a— a sentence that we all agree on, kind of. We say it's a system, and it publishes media. That could be enough. You know? Because it's like a very highlevel definition

而且没人把这些人叫作艺术家？ 为什么不呢？ 他们他妈的就是创作者。 对吧？ 但他们做了艺术家所声称的事。 他们改变了现实的安排方式。 所以今天我们坐在这个房间里， 我们写一份文档。 对吧？ 而这个实体需要一个名字， 但我们可以之后再做。 或者现在就可以——它需要一份章程。

of what this is. If it's too specific, it'll not work. Because it'll— it'll limit us from doing certain things. But on the next level then, there will be a clearer definitions. Because we need very— very clear rules. So it needs a name. It needs a charter. One paragraph saying what it is and what it is for.

对吧？ 这就像宪法一样。 那就是一段文字。 它只是说明它是什么、用来做什么。 而我们知道它是什么，对吧？ 但我们得找到一句——一句——一句话， 大概是我们都能认同的那种。 我们说它是一个系统， 并且它发行媒体。 这可能就够了。 你知道吗？ 因为这就像是一个非常高层次的定义，

And it needs three rules. So rule one is admission. What is allowed to enter? Anything? Only materials made by us? Curated materials from the internet? And then who decides? And how is it decided? Is it a vote that we do? We could do a little voting system. And every— and we upload the images or the videos.

说明这到底是什么。 如果太具体，就行不通。 因为它会——会限制我们， 让我们做某些事情。 但到了下一层面， 就会有更清晰的定义。 因为我们需要非常——非常明确的规则。 所以它需要一个名字。 它需要一份章程。 一段文字说明它是什么， 以及它用来做什么。

And then we could say 50% of the people have to say yes. And then it's— it's going into the system. And if no, then it's not going to be published. Is it a single editor? We could decide— we could make a vote and decide that, uh, I don't know, you are going to be the editor. You're going to be the— the boss

而且它需要三条规则。 所以第一条规则是"承认"。 允许进入什么？ 任何东西？ 只允许由我们制造的材料吗？ 来自互联网的精选材料？ 那接下来由谁来决定？ 那怎么决定？ 是我们通过投票决定吗？ 我们可以做一个小型投票系统。 然后每次——我们上传图片， 或者视频。

of what's going to be published or not. Or it could be a random machine. Like the slot machine thing. You know? Be like, uh, not— not— yeah. It could be a slot machine, for example. That's not the best example. So rule— the rule two is arrangement. Yeah? How is it ordered, combined, so. Once the material is inside,

然后我们可以说，50%的人 必须说"是"。 然后它就——就进入系统。 如果不是，那就不会发布。 是单一编辑者吗？ 我们可以决定——我们可以投票， 然后决定，呃，我也不知道， 你要当编辑。 你要当——当老板，

how is it structured? How is it organized? Is it organized by time, by medium? Is it, again, a randomizer? Um, that puts your video next to a stranger's meme and destroys the meaning you intended, for example. Yeah? This is— this is called context. Yeah? How things work next to each other. Remember, arrangement is where the vibe is actually produced.

决定什么会发布、什么不发布。 或者它也可以是一台随机机器。 就像那个抽奖机那种。 你懂吧？ 就像，呃，不——不——对。 比如说，它可以是一台抽奖机。 这不是最好的例子。 所以规则——第二条规则是"安排"。 对吧？ 它是如何被排列、被组合的， 所以。 一旦材料进入里面，

Right? And the rule three is attribution. So who is named? Is the author credited? Or does the entity absorb everything and it's just the entity, the thing? Like a corporation, you know, under the brand— like I think, for example, Xiaomi is a really, really interesting corporation because they don't— they— they have this brand

它的结构是什么样的？ 它是如何组织的？ 是按时间、按媒介来组织的吗？ 还是说，又是一个随机化的机制？ 嗯，这会把你的视频放在陌生人的梗图旁边， 比如说，把你原本想要的意思给毁了。 对吧？ 这——这叫"上下文"。 对吧？ 事情如何彼此相邻地运作。 记住，"安排"就是氛围真正被创造出来的地方。

that comes from the mobile phones. And then they don't produce the stuff themselves anymore. Like the— the— the beard trimmer and the fucking toothbrush thing. They— they have— but they have— they have a very good charter. And the very, very good admission system. Because the quality has to be good.

对吧？ 第三条规则是"归属"。 那么，谁被命名？ 作者被归功吗？ 还是说实体把一切都吸收进去， 最后就只剩实体、那个东西？ 比如说一家公司，你懂的， 在品牌名下——比如我想，举个例子， 小米是一家非常非常有意思的公司， 因为他们不——他们——他们有这个品牌，

Because I love the brand, but if I buy one piece with— in a meme store, and it's not good, I will doubt every other piece. I will think, ooh, this was bad. Probably this and this and this could also be bad. Because now I have bought a lot of things, and they're all good. So one thing can destroy it.

这个品牌源自手机。 然后他们就不再自己生产这些东西了。 比如——那个——那个剃须刀， 还有那该死的牙刷玩意儿。 他们——他们有——但他们有—— 他们有一份非常好的章程。 还有非常非常好的"接纳"系统。 因为质量必须要好。

So they know that. Yeah? And they built a system where they can somehow manage the quality is very— is a— is a— is a very interesting brand.

因为我喜欢这个品牌， 但如果我在梗图店里买一件—— 而它不好， 我就会怀疑其他所有东西。 我会想：哦，这个不好。 可能这个、这个、这个也可能不好。 因为现在我买了很多东西， 而且它们都很好。 所以有一件事可能会把它毁掉。

So—

所以他们知道这一点。 对吧？ 他们建立了一个系统，能让他们以某种方式管理， 质量非常——是个——是个——非常有意思的品牌。

Important question. What if a piece of material offends someone who— who answers? You know, we put that website out, and we get, uh, messages. Hey, what are you thinking? This is very— this is very, uh, this is a very racist meme. Are you racist or what? What is this? What is this system doing? Social media companies are constantly have this problem.

所以——

And in the beginning, they said, no, we're like the post office. We just transport information. But that's not how it works. You know? It's not a closed envelope, and you can say, I don't know what is in there. I'm not allowed to open it. So I'm— I'm neutral. They're not. Their algorithms decide who is—

重要问题。 如果某一块材料冒犯了某个人， 那——那个人会怎么回应？ 你知道，我们把那个网站放出来， 然后我们会收到，呃，消息。 喂，你在想什么？ 这非常——这非常，呃，这是一个非常种族主义的梗图。 你是种族主义者还是怎么回事？ 这是什么？ 这个系统在做什么？ 社交媒体公司一直有这个问题。

what is published, where, etc., etc. And they almost have no— uh, they had to be forced to make rules of admission. Because they just said, everything is allowed. And now they have moderators. Human and— and machine moderators, who filter out, uh, brutal content, sexual content, offensive content, and so on, and so on.

而在一开始，他们说，不， 我们就像邮局一样。 我们只是传输信息。 但事情不是这么运作的。 你知道吗？ 这不是一个封闭的信封， 你不能说：我不知道里面是什么。 我不允许打开。 所以我——我是中立的。 他们不是。 他们的算法会决定谁——

Which then becomes a governance that is— has so much impact on us, but is by a private company. I don't like that. I don't trust private companies. I— this is my position. I trust governments more than private companies. Which is kind of absurd, but it's— it's actually a fact after my experience, it's actually true.

什么被发布、发布在哪里，等等等等。 而且他们几乎没有——呃，他们不得不被迫 制定接纳规则。 因为他们就说：一切都允许。 而现在他们有了审核员。 人类和——以及机器审核员， 他们会筛选出，呃，残酷的内容， 性内容、冒犯性内容等等等等。

Even the American government, which is crazy. Anyway. So let's come to an end. So one more thing. Um, a veto. Anyone in this room can object strongly to any direction. The veto does not auto— we can build that into the system. Yeah? This is a decision thing. The veto does not automatically stop the project, but it forces us

于是就形成了一种治理体系—— 对我们影响非常大， 但它是由一家私营公司在掌控。 我不喜欢这样。 我不信任私营公司。 我——这就是我的立场。 我更信任政府，而不是私营公司。 这有点荒谬， 但这——这其实是事实， 以我的经验来看，确实如此。

to listen. I tell— I told you that yesterday. It's an interesting experiment. You know, will anybody use it, for example? And how is the group then dealing with it? If someone says, no, I really don't want that. So, um, yeah, it forces us to stop, listen, and answer the objection before we continue.

甚至美国政府也是， 这太离谱了。 总之。 那我们就到这里吧。 还有一件事。 嗯，否决权。 这个房间里的任何人都可以强烈反对 任何方向的决定。 否决权不会自动—— 我们可以把它融入到系统里。 对吧？ 这就是决策的问题。 否决权不会自动阻止 这个项目，但它会迫使我们

That clause protects the entity from becoming a machine that runs over people. We are humans, and we should feel challenged, maybe, but also we should feel okay with what we're doing. Together. Individually, we can do whatever we want. Yeah? We can do things that we don't feel okay with. I do that all the time.

去倾听。 我说过——我昨天就跟你说过。 这是一个有意思的实验。 你知道，会不会有人用它， 比如说？ 那团队接下来是怎么应对的？ 如果有人说，不，我真的不想要那样。 所以，嗯，是的，它会迫使我们 停下来、倾听，并回应这个异议 然后再继续。

So some of you will make material. Some of you will collect and curate it. And that's now a— the second part, which we're going to do later today. Um, I'm not going to work on that today. Today we work on the system. And then tomorrow we're going to work on these, uh, on these kind of jobs. Yeah? That use— you can choose them.

那条条款能保护该实体 不至于变成一台机器 以压过人来运转。 我们是人， 也许我们应该感到被挑战， 但我们也应该觉得可以接受 我们正在做的事情。 一起。单独的话，我们可以做 我们想做的任何事。 对吧？ 我们可以做一些让我们不舒服的事。 我经常这么做。

Some of you will make material. So these are the workers, basically. Yeah? Or designers, or artists. Some of you will collect and curate it. These are the— the collectors, or the curators. And some of you will write the rules. These are kind of directors, or the— the— the system thinkers, or whatever.

所以你们当中有些人会制作素材。 你们当中有些人会收集并策展它。 而这就是——第二部分， 我们今天晚些时候会讲。 嗯，我今天不打算做这个。 今天我们专注于系统。 然后明天我们会去做 这些，呃，这类工作。 对吧？ 这些内容——你可以自己选择。

Yeah? There is no hierarchy there. It needs everybody. Yeah? Without one of these three, the system does not work. So we need all of that. All three are necessary. And I'm not hiding the fact that these are different kinds of power. In our society, they have different kinds of power. But we don't have to respect that.

你们当中有些人会制作素材。 所以基本上这些就是工作者。 对吧？ 或者设计师，或者艺术家。 你们当中有些人会收集并策展它。 这些是——收藏者， 或者策展人。 还有你们当中有些人会写规则。 这些算是导演， 或者——那些——系统思维的人， 之类的。

And we can also discuss that. How we feel about it. If you want. The person who writes the arrangement rule has more influence over the final vibe than the person who makes the best single video. That's a fact in systems. Yeah? If you design the system, you have more influence. Doesn't mean that you're more happy,

对吧？ 那里没有等级结构。 需要所有人。 对吧？ 没有这三者之一， 系统就无法运转。 所以我们需要这些全部。 三者都必不可少。 而且我不否认这样一个事实： 这些是不同类型的权力。 在我们的社会里，它们拥有不同类型的权力。 但我们不必尊重这一点。

or that, you know. And it's not only influence that is important in life. So that is not a secret. It's just a lesson. It's exactly the structure we drew on the wall yesterday, or on the— on the— that we designed, or came up with, and now, uh, we are inside that. We can also rotate the roles. So anyone who wants to write rules

我们也可以讨论这一点。 我们对此有什么感受。 如果你愿意的话。 写"安排规则"的人 对最终的氛围影响更大 比制作最好的单人视频的人更有影响力。 这在系统里是事实。 对吧？ 如果你设计了系统， 你就有更大的影响力。 这并不意味着你更开心，

can write rules on then switch, maybe. Or maybe not. That's— that's going to be decided today. If you want that. But we can have a pretty open system. Um, but we need some rules. Otherwise, it's just chaos. Uh, and the last thing, and I'm— I mentioned that a couple of times now. Just now, now also. Uh, we do not finish it.

或者说，你懂的。 而且重要的不只是影响力， 在生活中也是如此。 所以这不是什么秘密。 这只是一个教训。 这正是我们画出来的结构， 昨天画在墙上的， 或者在——在—— 我们设计的，或者我们想出来的， 而现在，呃，我们已经在其中了。 我们也可以轮换角色。 所以任何想写规则的人

Yeah? We build it completely enough to become real, so we can actually do something and work with it. So it functions, and it produces something. But we leave it open enough that it can still become something else. Because— and that's, uh, when you look at the corporation and algorithm, they're— they're organisms.

都可以写规则，然后也许再切换。 也可能不切换。 这——这会在今天决定。 如果你愿意的话。 但我们可以有一个相当开放的系统。 嗯，但我们需要一些规则。 否则就只是混乱。 呃，最后一点， 我——我刚才已经提过几次了。 就刚刚，也提过。 呃，我们不会把它做完。

They're alive. They change every day. They adapt to circumstances. Markets changing. People changing. Uh, day and night, whatever. You know?

对吧？ 我们会把它完整地构建出来， 让它变得真实， 这样我们才能真正做点事情， 并且用它来工作。 这样它才能运作， 并产出一些东西。 但我们会把它留得足够开放， 让它仍然可以变成别的东西。 因为——而这，呃， 当你看公司和算法时， 它们——它们是有机体。

Mmhmm. And then we publish it. Yeah? We do not exploit it. We put it in the world, and we watch what moves. We watch what happens. Yeah?

它们是活的。 它们每天都在变化。 它们会适应各种环境。 市场在变化。 人在变化。 呃，昼夜不停，随便怎么说。 你懂吧？

Okay? Um, let's discuss quickly. What do you think about that?

嗯哼。 然后我们把它发布出来。 对吧？ 我们不会利用它。 我们把它放到世界上， 然后看看什么在流动。 我们看看会发生什么。 对吧？

And let's, um, um. Yeah, what do you think, or what do you— what do you want? And then we take a quick, uh, quick five, and then we start to work.

好吗？ 嗯，我们快速讨论一下。 你怎么看这个？

So—

然后我们，嗯，嗯。 对，你怎么想， 或者你——你想要什么？ 然后我们快速，呃， 快速过一遍， 然后开始工作。

Sorry? No.

所以——

Yeah, you have to speak a little bit louder if you— if you— if you talk.

不好意思？ 不。

You can just say anything outright. Like, uh, at least as loud as I do. Mmhmm.

对，如果你想说，就得说大一点。 如果你——如果你——如果你说话的话。 有什么都可以直接说出来。

So we create a mechanism similar to a platform algorithm. Any strengths?

比如说，呃，至少要像我这么大声。 嗯哼。 所以制作一个类似于平台算法的一个机制。

Some. TikTok? TikTok？

有什么优势吗？ 一些。

It can censor the mechanism. Let's confirm that first. If. If you want to do that, but that would be super boring. I mean, it already exists, and it's perfect. I— I could— I wouldn't know how to improve TikTok right now. It's so good. So, uh, no. Uh, we— we should go into another— think in another direction. Yes, please. In like a country. You know, right?

能审查机制。 先确定一下。

It's like a country, right? This mechanism. This model. Mmhmm. Could be, yeah. Yeah? We could be— Okay. Could be like that, yeah?

如果。 如果你想这么做， 但那会非常无聊。 我的意思是，它已经存在了， 而且很完美。 我——我可能——我不知道 现在该怎么改进 TikTok。 它太好了。 所以，呃，不。 呃，我们——我们应该进入另一个—— 换个角度思考。 好的，请。 在某个国家之类的。 你知道的，对吧？ 就是像一个国家，是吧？这个机制。 这个模型。 嗯。

We're the ones who make the rules. You are God. Yeah.

有可能，是的。 对吧？ 我们可以—— 好。 可以是那样，对吧？ 我们就是制定规则的人。 你是上帝。

Hahaha. Yeah. It's— it's—

对。 哈哈哈。

Isn't it kind of like a Senate vote? We submit a proposal, and then everyone votes on whether it gets through. Today, it's about what kind of rules we designed together, and then— Probably. That's right now. We should design a system. Yeah.

对。 这——这—— 是不是有点像那种参议院投票一样？我们提交方案，然后大家投票是否进去。 我今天是我们一起对设计过什么样的规则，然后— 应该是。 现在没错。 应该是设计一个系统。 对啊。

Thanks for the video, and for this picture. But we don't know how to display it, right? Like, we need to set something like a game— how we're going to play it. Right. It's just vegetables. Just make—make a system. What? These things you're looking for now. For example, it pops up at random on your face, or it's the kind where you choose what you want to see.

谢谢视频啊，这个图片。但是我们不知道怎么去展示它，是不是？就是我们要定一个像是对游戏，我们要怎么玩。 对。 就是菜。就是做—做一个系统。 什么？你现在找的这些东西。 就比如说它是随机弹到你的脸上的，还是那种是你去选择它你想看到的。

Make a filtering mechanism, more sorted and prioritized. Right. Right. It's included in it too. Sorting, filtering. Right.

做一个筛选机制，比较排序。 对。 对。 它也是包含在里面。 编排啊，筛选。 对。

It's through sorting and combination that it generates some definitions, and then it creates something like a—like a system.

是通过排序组合让它去产生一些定义，然后做出来一个—一个系统一样的东西。

That explanation is kind of highlevel. Right. It's not like we're told to make an artwork, and then just make a system. Right. Like I have a secret map, I have a secret map, and I think it's really interesting, and someone thinks that in this map, someone thinks this is very offensive, so is it by voting, or by other ways that it can get through?

解释很高呗。 对。 不是让我们去做一个艺术品，就是做一个系统。 对。 就好比我有一张秘密图，我有一个秘密图，然后我觉得这很有意思，然后某个人觉得在这个图里面，某个人觉得这个很冒犯，那是通过投票，还是说通过其他途径让它可以进去？

Mmhmm. It can be generated. It can be generated. So just quickly, yeah, go on. No, no, it's— it's really cool when you discuss. I'll just read long, you discuss with each other, because that helps me a lot to see and then I can help a little bit or can, like, something like that, if it gets— you know? But yeah, just continue talking, yeah? I'll— I'll— I really read on and listen.

嗯。 可以产生。 可以产生。

And I— I— I try to think how to, uh, how to act afterwards.

那就快速说一下，嗯，继续吧。 不不，这——这真的很酷。 当你们讨论的时候。 我就读一大段， 你们彼此讨论， 因为这对我帮助很大， 这样我能看清楚，然后也能稍微帮一点忙， 或者说，类似那样的， 如果它变得——你懂吧？ 不过对，就继续说吧，好吗？ 我——我——我会继续读下去并听着。

Mmhmm. Or a filtering mechanism proposal, for example, say this image can't show anything, as long as it's the whole— the whole thing. Right. Does everyone have an image? But mainly, how do you filter?

然后我——我——我试着想想怎么，呃， 之后该怎么做。 嗯。 或者是一个筛选机制方案，比如说这个图片里面它不能够出现什么东西，只要是整个—就整个。 对。 大家都有图吗？但主要是怎么筛。

Or is it the sorting issue? Right. I think we'll say that in the image 70% is red, but in the image there's also 70% red. Each person—each person's kind of thing. We. Everyone's "feces" are different. We. I want to too. We shouldn't discuss the older ones first, because first we use it for the overall big direction,

还是编排的那个问题。 对。我觉得我们会讲到画面里有70%是红色，但是有画面里70%是红色。 每个人—每个人那种。 我们。 每个人的大便不一样。 我们。 我也要。先不是老一点的才讨论，因为我们先用它来整个的大的方向，

and after discussing the big direction, then we go on to filter the images. At that point we can use our big direction as a benchmark, and decide which images fit the rules we set out, and then decide which ones get included. Then vote—like that. Your theory is kind of like voting on a proposal. Hey, you need a minute, don't you?

然后讨论个大的方向以后，接下来我们再去筛选图片。这个时候我们就可以以我们大的方向为一个标杆，然后决定哪些图片是否符合我们制定的规则，然后决定代表进去。然后投票，这样。 你的理论类似于方案投票。 哎，你这个人需要一个分钟吧？

It's not like it's split into three types. Yes. Yes. But you don't need to split it that clearly either. Then like this. Actually, I don't think this needs to be like that. You have to look within it. Find something completely random. For example, I throw out an image, and I just rely on coins to decide whether it can go in. I'm completely random. That makes it blurry.

他不是就分了3种。 是。是。 但也不用分得那么清楚。 那这样。 其实我觉得这个不需要这样。 你要从里面找。 找一个完全随机。比如说我丢一张图出来，我就直接靠硬币来决定它能不能进去。我就完全随机。 这样就模糊了。

I just—just—simply abandoned everyone's preference issue. Mmhmm. It all depends entirely on luck. And it doesn't matter what the other person does—anything. This is— In—like, maybe in the director's roles and stuff. How you're doing in the discussion. Why should I discuss it? I'll just say it directly.

我就—就—就单纯就已经抛弃了大家的喜好问题。 嗯。 是完全通过运气来经历。 而且它无所谓啊，对方什么都可以。 这个是。 在—就是可能在导演里面角色的这些。 你在讨论里面怎么样。 我为什么要讨论？我直接就是说。

It might. Like how each one's spread, you know, because it has to be posted on social media. Social media. There's no need. We are. Because I think we don't need to make it absolutely hugely viral, or anything like that. Just so everyone notices. This.

它可能。 就像每一张的传播度嘛，因为要发到社群。 社群。 它没必要。 我们是。 因为我觉得我们也没必要让它一定要爆火啊，或者怎么样。就是所有人注意到。 这个。

Or we just do it randomly. Mmhmm. We do too. Or just— all crowded together. Right. Everyone together. Everyone kind of likes it. Likes. You share what you're interested in, or whatever. What you want to post. Filter it out. Everyone compares it together. Right. A massprogress movement.

要么就是。 我们去随机。 嗯。 我们也是。 要么就是。 全部挤在一起。 对。 大家一起。 每个人就类似于点赞。 点赞。 你把你感兴趣或什么。 你想发什么。 筛出来。 在大家在一起对比一下。 对。 群众共进。

Coexistence.

共同生存。

Say it again. This is an algorithm. If you say it's interested, you can push it more and more. Everyone.

你再说一次。 这个是算法。 你说它感兴趣的话，你可以越推越多。大家。

Something like that. It's like the left side is always with you. Right. And then. Holding hands. There are two pieces of content. Holding hands. That hurts so much. I'm happy. It's this gesture. Can the rules be written down? Okay. One kind of rule. I mean. I—I really don't like eating mango, so in my content I decided to use mango.

类似的。就是左边一直在跟你。 对。 然后。 双手抱。 有两个内容。 手头抱。 好痛。 我快乐。 就是这个动作。 规则书写能不能。 好。 一种规则。 就是说。 我—我非常不喜欢吃芒果，所以我的内容里面就决定芒果。

You won't turn really funny. Our comments are more like a system in here, it's talking about it. It filtered some weird words into these comments. Hahaha. That's so funny. Haha. It's like the images each of us filters, but I think the content that gets filtered is randomly put into this thing,

你不会变很好笑。 我们的评论就比这里面是一个系统的，它在讲。 它筛选了一些奇怪的话放到这个评论里。 哈哈哈。 太好笑了。 哈哈。 就像是我们每个人筛出来的图片，但是我觉得筛选出来的内容就像这样子随机放到了这个东西里面，

and it turns into— put into this translation. How about we just let the AI generate it? How do we— Is there any possibility for the AI to help us filter out the viewer? Maybe. You don't—you can't understand other people. You think that way it won't be difficult. But in others' eyes, it just has this vibe.

会变成。 放到了这个翻译里面。 要不我们直接让AI出来。 我们要怎么。 有没有有没有这个可能性让AI去帮我们把那个观看者筛出来。 可能。 你没有。你没有办法理解别人。 你觉得这样会没有困难。 但是在别人眼中这样就是有这个vibe。

How can you be sure whether it really has that vibe, or which direction that vibe actually goes, what kind of vibe it is. I just don't think this thing really is— So I think— And when those elements are linked together, it also has different effects. Like, for example, the Tech Boy effect.

你怎么能确定这样子到底有没有这个vibe，或者是它这个vibe到底是哪一个方向，哪一个类型的vibe。就是我觉得这个东西还并不是。所以我觉得。 还有那个元素串起来也会有不同的效果。就比如说科技小子效应。

Just an apple and a man's face, and then what it even means. Also. It's random. Random. Right. Actually, what it's saying is probably just random too. It didn't say— that the whole direction is consistently random. Right. The direction is consistent. What it's saying— Right. It deliberately throws in what interests someone.

就一个苹果和一个男人的脸，然后还有一个什么意思。 还。 就是随机。 随机。 对。 其实它应该是说的可能也就是随机。 它没有说。 就整部方向一致随机。 对。方向一致。 说的什么。 对。特意投谁感兴趣的东西进去。

Right. It just throws in random stuff. I might be funny, maybe.

对。 就投随机东西。 我可能要好玩吧。

Mm. I mean, if—if it were better, if it were indispensable, then it's actually a— Still, still. Or still. More than everyone— When everyone just came in, it was OK. Then it's actually just a— Right. For the public, I feel we're missing that specialness. Then we pick what everyone thinks isn't OK.

嗯。就是我觉得如果如果它更好，必不可缺的话，那它其实是一个。 还还。 还是。 比大家都。 大家刚刚来的时候就是OK的。 那它其实就是一个。 对。 大众就是我就觉得这个我们就缺少了这个特殊。 那我们选出大家都觉得不OK的东西。

Hahaha. That's also a public feeling. How many likes each image gets— Right. Right. Whatever thing will have requirements. Mm. Directly random. I think the content might not be the key. I think the rules are— Fun rules. As for whether the content is fun or not, everyone is very subjective,

哈哈哈。 那也是一个大众的感觉。 每一张图有多少人点的赞。 对。对。 有什么东西会有要求。 嗯。 直接随机。 我觉得内容可能不是关键。我觉得是规则是。 好玩的规则。 内容我觉得好不好玩，大家都很主观，

there's no way to decide it. Right. I think it's about thinking about what it is. It's the rules. And those rules don't necessarily have to be strongly related to the outside world. But because it already carries an external element in itself. The main thing is still this system. Right. Externally, it's basically for each— understanding the atmosphere. Don't come up with a fun game rule.

没办法定下来。 对。 我觉得是什么去思考。就是规则。它这个规则它也不一定就是要跟外部有强相关。 但因为它本身就是自带一个外部的。 主要还是这个系统。 对。 外部其实就是每个对。 这个氛围的理解。 不要制定一个好玩的游戏规则。

For example, I saw an example before, someone made a work, and he had the audience filter it, filtering the jar, and the ugliest ones he'd just smash up, and then— Oh. Earlier, there was a work like that at the Box Art Museum, and they designed this rule, but whether the vase is pretty, isn't really what matters,

比如说我之前看过一个例子，有个人做一个作品，他就让观众去筛选，筛选那个罐子，觉得最丑的就把它摔碎，然后。 哦。 就之前在盒子美术馆里面有个这样一个作品，它就就设计了一个这个规则，但那个花瓶好不好看，这个本身是不是很重要的，

it's the rule filtering. I think that might be more important, and that's how this work came about. Mm.

而是这个规则筛选。我觉得可能更重要，才形成了一个这个作品。 嗯。

Every chip is the same. Mm. But some chips are given a— that's why the game becomes fun.

每一个薯片都是一样的。 嗯。 但是某一些薯片就是被赋予了。 所以才让这个游戏变得好玩。

You can understand it. Mm.

你们看得懂。 嗯。

Then we, here— We're going live today. The ones in charge of the live stream are us, and we're considering whether we can implement it on the website— I think we can. Then we'll do a live stream. No matter what we do. 我 think。 I think.

那我我们这。 今天就直播。 就是负责直播的是我们考虑能不能在网上去网站上实现的这个。 我觉得可以。 那我们就直播一下。 不管做。

Ourselves.

自己。

A way of designing the rules and how to play it. I think so. Like how it it sounds really cool, what you're discussing. I'm really happy it's kind of it's what I not intended, but what I was hoping for, that this this process of communication that happens and that the different levels levels that are kind of going into each other. Because you're all different.

规则设计那种玩法的一个。

But, uh, and what what I think now what happened is there were some like groupings were starting to discuss, and I was also thinking maybe like three groups, you know, that sit a little bit together. And the question for me would be how should we structure it. Should every should we do like three groups

我也这么觉得。 就是听起来真的很酷， 你们在讨论的这些。 我很开心，这有点像是我原本没打算的， 但我希望的是， 这个发生的沟通过程， 以及不同的层级之间在互相衔接的那种。 因为你们都不一样。

and every groups works on works on on everything, you know, on the whole system? And then we come together and each group presents the system that they came up with, and then we see how we can either bring them together or some or or or everybody's like, whoa, this is this is so cool, we want to do that,

但是，呃，我觉得现在发生的是， 有些小组开始在讨论， 我也在想也许三个小组， 你知道的，稍微坐在一起一点。 那我这边的问题是， 我们该怎么组织它。 是不是每个人都要做成三个小组，

you know, from from one group. And that's not a judgment. It's not like, oh, they did it better or not. It's more like, this is like, I don't know, what do you think? Or we can assign, or I mean, I I haven't thought it through, so I'm asking you. We can also I think it's not smart to do, but it's possible.

而且每个小组都能处理所有内容， 你知道的，整个系统都能覆盖？ 然后我们再聚在一起， 每个小组展示他们想出来的系统， 然后看看我们怎么把它们整合起来， 或者有些人会说，哇， 这也太酷了，我们也想这么做，

You know, to to say, yeah, people who rather want to produce, people who rather want to kind of think about how the algorithm or algorithm, it doesn't have to be an algorithm, how, um, how the system works with material, you know. This is kind of the material, the how to work with material, and this is the the the the overall system how it's designed

你知道的，从一个小组出发。 这不是评判。 也不是说他们做得更好或不好。 更像是，这个怎么说呢，我也不知道， 你觉得怎么样？或者我们可以分配， 或者说，我还没想清楚， 所以我是在问你。 我们也可以——我觉得这样做不太明智， 但也有可能。

and what kind of rules it has. What do you what do you think? What what would you like to do, or how do you think we get the fastest to the best? It's all it's really open. It's you can choose every way we want to.

你知道，比如说，嗯， 有些人更想做产出， 有些人更想思考算法——算法—— 不一定非得是算法， 而是系统如何、呃，如何与材料一起工作， 你知道的。 这里说的是材料，也就是如何与材料一起工作， 以及整个系统是如何设计的，

And I know it's going to work now because you you are discussing the things that are relevant. So if we need to divide into the three groups. You don't need to. It's a possibility that that you do that, or that or rather something or rather something like, the whole system that every every group. And you can also the group doesn't have to be fixed.

它有哪些规则。 你怎么看？你觉得呢？ 你想做什么， 或者你觉得我们怎样才能最快做到最好？ 这一切都非常开放。 你可以按我们想要的任何方式来选择。

You can also be like, oh no, I want to I want to go over there and listen what they are doing, and someone else is coming to you. That doesn't have to be so fixed. You know, and we can all be in the room and it's it's kind of interactive, but it's just that I saw that now that this because it's too many people that you have to be

我知道现在这样会有效， 因为你们在讨论那些东西， 也就是相关的内容。 所以如果我们需要分成三个小组。 不需要。 你们可以这么做， 或者说，或者更像是这样， 整个系统里每个小组都能做。 而且小组也不一定要固定不变。

so disciplined. One person speaks, you know, and then everybody has to listen. But you have all ideas now and want to talk about it. So it's better to do it in a little smaller unit. Would be would be me, my suggestion. Yeah, I agree. I agree with you. I think we need more small units to talk and after then we can combine it.

你也可以说，哦不， 我想去那边， 听听他们在做什么， 然后另一个人再来找你。 这也不需要那么死板。 你知道，我们都可以在房间里， 而且这种互动性也挺强， 但我发现现在， 因为人太多了，你就得——

Yeah, exactly. We present and then we combine or not or we take one or two or whatever. Or or different parts from different systems. Yeah.

非常自律。 一个人说话，你知道的， 然后大家都得听。 但现在你们有各种想法， 也都想聊一聊。 所以最好在更小的单元里做。 我的建议是—— 嗯，我同意。 我同意你。 我觉得我们需要更多的小单元， 来沟通，然后我们再把它们合并起来。

Let's do that.

对，没错。 我们先展示，然后再合并， 或者不合并，或者只用一两个， 随便怎么做都行。 或者用不同系统的不同部分。 嗯。

Let's do, um, Let's do 15 minutes. Let's do quickly. Do quick. Yeah. Or 20 minutes. A group, three three groups. And talk about the whole thing. And but already start to note things down. Okay. Start make actual notes in the computer or on paper. Rules, constitution, uh, uh, filtering or something like that.

就这么做吧。

And maybe start with the abstract. You know, like what's the whole thing? And then but then you can pretty quickly go into the curation and into the other levels. Okay. Good. Okay.

我们，呃，就做15分钟。 我们快一点做。 快点。 嗯。 或者20分钟。 一个小组，三个小组。 然后把整个内容聊一遍。 但也要开始把事情记下来。 好。 开始在电脑上做真正的笔记， 或者写在纸上。 规则、构成、呃、呃，过滤， 之类的东西。

也许先从概念开始。 你知道，比如整体是什么？ 然后你就可以很快地， 进入策展和其他层级。 好。 很好。 好。