Yeah. Uh, the things that we want to discuss are your. Yeah.

对。 呃，我们想讨论的内容是 你的。 对。

Um, so.

嗯，所以。

Yeah, no, the mic—so my greatgrandfather was a friend with the grandfather of Alberto. They were serving in the Swiss army in the mountains together, and they became friends in the First World War on the border. They were protecting the border because the mountain area is a border to France and to Italy,

对，不是，麦克风—— 所以我的曾祖父是朋友 和Alberto的爷爷是朋友。 他们在瑞士军队服役 在山里一起， 后来在第一次世界大战中成了朋友 在边境。 他们在保护边境 因为山区就是边界 连接法国和意大利，

and so they were standing with their guns in the mountains, in the snow, and they were talking, and they became friends. And then, and the father of Alberto is also a very good painter, very famous also, very expensive too, he's in Japan, he's very, very reputable. And so we have this painting and it's, uh, it went into another.

所以他们拿着枪站在那里 在山里，在雪地里， 他们在交谈， 就成了朋友。 然后，Alberto的父亲 也是一位非常好的画家， 也很有名， 而且也很贵， 他在日本， 非常非常有声望。 所以我们有这幅画 然后它，呃，又进入了另一个。

Side of the family. It's about, worth about half a million dollars. Wow. It's quite expensive. It's a beautiful painting. And then we, we were—I would, when I was a kid, I would always eat, uh, lunch and dinner, and the painting was on the wall, and we would eat, and I did not—I saw, I knew it's a good painting,

家族的另一边。 它大概值大约五十万美元。 哇。 挺贵的。 这是一幅很美的画。 然后我们，我们当时—— 我小时候， 我总是吃，呃，午餐和晚餐， 画就挂在墙上， 我们就吃饭， 而我没有——我看到， 我知道这是画得很好，

I knew from where it came, but I, I had no idea that it was so valuable. Oh, it's interesting. And, uh, yeah, we also put that in our, um, in our Wikipedia entry. So people can understand the context and, uh, then I grew up in the, in the, in Switzerland, in Basel, which is the city of Art Basel. But it's also the city of Jean Tanguy

我知道它来自哪里， 但我，我完全不知道 它竟然这么有价值。 哦，很有意思。 然后，呃，对，我们也把那个 放进了我们的，嗯，维基百科条目里。 这样大家就能理解 背景和，呃， 然后我是在那里长大的，在那里，在那里， 在瑞士，在巴塞尔， 那里是艺术巴塞尔这座城市。 但它也是Jean Tanguy的城市

and Niki de Saint Phalle. Oh, yeah. And so I also grew up with Jean Tanguy. He was also around. And, um, so he would be in the restaurants and drinking and he would be, um, he would always have—like, in these really nice restaurants, they had these, um, like these beautiful napkins, you know, made out of textile.

以及Niki de Saint Phalle的城市。 哦，是的。 所以我也是在Jean Tanguy那里长大的。 他也在附近。 然后，嗯，所以他会在餐馆里 喝酒，而且他会，嗯， 他总是会——比如在这些特别好的餐馆里， 他们有那种，嗯，像漂亮的餐巾纸， 你知道的，用纺织品做的。

Yeah. And he would have these napkins and he would always have a pen and he would always draw. And everybody got drunk and he would draw on the napkins and then he would go to the toilet. And then everybody was like, taking the napkins and then putting a fresh one there putting the napkins and so our neighbors

对。 然后他会拿着这些餐巾纸 他总会带着一支笔 然后他总会画画。 然后大家都喝醉了 他就在餐巾纸上画画 然后他就去上厕所。 然后大家就那样，拿着餐巾纸 然后在那儿放一个新的 放着餐巾纸，所以我们的邻居们

were really good friends with Jean Tanguy or they called him Jeannot and they have so many of these napkins that they frame, you know. Oh, yeah. And put on the wall. So it's all full of Tanguy and we have beautiful Tanguy installations in Basel. Now we have also the, uh, Tanguy Museum. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah, a little bit of, uh, art history.

和Jean Tanguy是非常好的朋友 或者他们叫他Jeannot 他们有很多这种餐巾纸 还会给它们做装饰框，你懂的。 哦，是的。 然后挂在墙上。 所以到处都是Tanguy的照片 我们在巴塞尔有很多漂亮的Tanguy装置作品 在巴塞尔。 现在我们也有，呃，Tanguy博物馆。 不好意思。 嗯。 嗯，会有一点，呃，艺术史。

Life. Life. So I was, I never—my family is not an artist family. My, my family is a science family, so yeah, yeah, my father is a, he's a, was a genetic researcher in the 1960s, so that's also very avantgarde because that was really, really hot at, I mean, that was very new at the time, like, uh, they were doing—he was coming home

生活。 生活。 所以我当时——我从来没有——我家不是艺术家家庭。 我、我家是科学家庭， 所以，是的，是的，我父亲是个，呃，他是个， 在20世纪60年代做过遗传研究， 所以那也很前卫 因为那时候真的非常流行 我是说，那在当时非常新鲜， 比如，呃，他们在做——他回到家

and he told me, yeah, I was trying to put an egg of a Drosophila fly, you know, these fruit flies, I was trying to put an egg of a fruit fly kind of the substance of an egg of a fruit fly into another fruit fly and he would literally do it with, with his hands. As an experiment over years, he would try that.

他跟我说，是的，我一直在努力 把一枚Drosophila的卵子 飞进去，你知道的，就是那些果蝇， 我一直在尝试把一枚果蝇的卵子 把果蝇卵子的物质之类的东西 放进另一只果蝇里 而且他真的会用、用自己的手这么做。 多年来作为实验， 他会试着做这个。

In the 60s? In the, in the late 60s or in the, in the 70s. It's really avantgarde. It was very avantgarde, yeah, yeah. And we had a lot of scientists in, you know, like for dinner. And so on. But we are not, uh, we are not, like, we are middleclass family, uh, not rich, not, uh, not, uh, like not in the best, not coming from the best schools.

在60年代吗？ 在、在60年代末 或者在、在70年代。 真的很前卫。 非常前卫，是的，是的。 而且我们有很多科学家，你知道的， 比如来吃晚饭之类的。 但我们不是，呃，我们不是那种， 我们是中产家庭，呃， 不富有，不，呃，不，呃， 也不是最好的那种出身，来自最好的学校。

I mean, my, I mean, in the US, my dad was, that was a good school. He was at Yale in New Haven. Doing postdoctoral research. Yeah.

我是说，我的，我是说，在美国， 我爸爸在那里，那是一所好学校。 他在纽哈文的耶鲁大学。 做博士后研究。 嗯。

Um, but for me, like, to understand. The logic of science, my father was a really good teacher to me because he said, the most fundamental thing in the, for him in the world, in science, is that you want to see things that you have no concept of. Mm. And this is not possible. Because we have a lot of things in this room

嗯，但对我来说，比如说，要理解。 科学的逻辑， 我父亲对我来说是个非常好的老师 因为他说，最根本的一点是， 对他而言，在科学世界里， 就是你要去看见那些你根本没有概念的东西。 嗯。 而这是不可能的。 因为我们在这个房间里有很多东西

that are here but we have no concept, we have no language, we have no visual concept of it so we don't see it but it's in our face. There is this story of, uh, Australian aboriginous and you sit, they sat, like some Western scientists, they sat with the aboriginous and there was a car passing by and really fast, like, whoa.

它们在这里，但我们没有概念， 我们没有语言，也没有视觉上的概念 所以我们看不见它 但它就在我们眼前。 有这么一个故事，呃，关于澳大利亚原住民 你坐着，他们坐着，就像一些西方科学家一样， 他们和那些原住民坐在一起 然后有一辆车从旁边经过 而且非常快，就像，哇。

And the scientists were like, yeah, okay, there's a car passing by and they addressed the aboriginal and said, did you see what do you think about the car? And the aboriginal said, what are you talking about? And because there was no concept of car for the aboriginal, we never seen that, never knew that,

科学家们就说，嗯，好吧，有车从旁边经过 他们就对原住民说， 你看到了吗？你觉得那辆车怎么样？ 原住民说：你在说什么？ 因为对原住民来说，"车"这个概念并不存在， 我们从没见过这种概念，也从来不知道这些，

he didn't see it. He couldn't hear it, couldn't see it. So it went by the cognitive system and the processing system. Yeah. Um, which is, which is not, doesn't say anything about the aboriginal, says something about human beings. That we only see things that we have a concept of or a language of. But in return, that means if we invent something

他也没看见。 他听不见，也看不见。 所以它就经过了认知系统 以及处理系统。 嗯。 嗯，这个、这个并不、并不能说明什么 关于原住民的，反而说明了人类的东西。 也就是说，我们只看到那些我们有概念的东西 或者有语言的东西。 但作为回报，这意味着如果我们发明了什么

and we find a language, we create reality for humans. And so I grew up with this kind of, um, kind of scientific background or philosophy. Yeah. And I took that and I use it in art. So I believe that all of you grew up with concepts from your family or friends or uncles or, or parents or, or, or animals, if you come from, from farming families.

并且找到了一种语言，我们就为人类创造了现实。 所以我是在这种、嗯、这种科学背景下长大的 或者说哲学背景下。 嗯。 我把这些带着，然后用在艺术里。 所以我相信你们所有人都是在这些概念中长大的 来自家人、朋友、叔叔，或者、或者父母 或者、或者、或者动物，如果你来自农业家庭。

Like you have special relation to animals. Um, that can be extremely valuable and make your art and your life very special if you find a way to integrate that into your life rather than reject it. Yeah. That's charity. Kind of. Heritage, way of looking at the. Mmhmm. So that's why maybe we are always look into the past

比如你和动物有特殊的关系。 嗯，这可能会非常有价值 并让你的艺术和你的生活变得很特别 如果你能找到一种方式，把这些融入你的生活 而不是把它排斥掉。 嗯。 这就是慈善。 算是吧。 遗产，一种看待......的方式。 嗯哼。 所以也许这就是为什么我们总是在回望过去

of someone. Mmhmm. How we grew up. Yeah. Yeah. And if you, if you embrace that, and that's again, I'm, uh, that's the, the, that's what I, in the beginning of the workshop said, that we work with affirmation. So rather than saying no, we say yes. And by embracing our own history and being, and this sounds a little bit cheesy,

回望某个人的过去。 嗯哼。 我们是怎么长大的。 嗯。 嗯。 如果你、如果你接纳这一点， 而这又是，我，呃， 这就是、就是、这就是我， 在工作坊一开始说过的， 我们是在用肯定语来工作。 所以与其说"不"， 我们就说"是"。 而通过拥抱我们自己的历史， 并且——这听起来可能有点老套——

I don't mean it that way. I mean, by embracing things that other people or, or, or yourself might kind of reject because you, you're, you're annoyed by it. You know? You, you might be really annoyed by your dad who's a farmer and, and you, and you think, wow, he's, he's always like so brown and he's so small

我不是那个意思。 我的意思是，通过拥抱那些东西， 那些别人或、或、或你自己 可能会有点排斥，因为你、你会因此感到烦躁。 你懂吧？ 你、你可能会非常烦躁， 因为你爸爸是个农民， 然后，然后你就会想， 哇，他、他总是那么"棕"， 而且那么小，

and he comes and he doesn't understand anything and blah blah blah blah and he always tries to tell me that as a woman I, I, I should marry and all this kind of shit. And instead of rejecting that and being kind of manipulated now by all these like super white, uh, uh, uh, uh, pop stars and, and influencers that are really looking weird,

他来了就不懂， 什么都不懂，巴拉巴拉巴拉， 他总是想跟我说， 作为一个女人，我、我、我应该结婚， 之类的各种乱七八糟的话。 而不是去排斥这些，反而现在有点被操控， 被这些所谓的超白人、呃、呃、呃、呃、流行明星， 还有那些看起来很怪的网红，

meanwhile you kind of embrace that. You don't have to fully. You don't have to want to be like that. Mm. And if you investigate that, uh, you're gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna have a unique position. And that's what makes your research and your work then valuable. So we, we use this discussion right now

而你反而会把这些接纳下来。 你不必完全...... 你不必想要变成那样。 嗯。 如果你去研究这些，呃， 你会、你会、你会有一个独特的立场。 而这就是让你的研究， 以及你的工作变得有价值的原因。 所以我们、我们现在用这次讨论，

and you were looking at your phone so you missed it because it was already part of the workshop. Ha ha ha. But I'm gonna publish, I'm, well, I decided yesterday or this morning that I'm gonna do a website for myself for the whole workshop where I publish all the transcripts, all the summaries, all the lectures

而你当时在看手机， 所以你错过了，因为它已经是工作坊的一部分了。 哈哈哈。 但我会发布，我、嗯， 我昨天或者今天早上决定， 要为我自己做一个网站， 用于整个工作坊， 在那里我会发布所有的文字稿， 所有的摘要、所有的讲座，

that I give, all the presentations. Oh, I didn't open that yet. So, um, so we can, you can basically, you don't have to read it up, but you can kind of download it and feed it to an AI and it'll, it'll summarize it for you or you can ask it questions. You know, what, what did, what were we discussing about this topic

我讲的所有内容、所有的演示。 哦，我还没打开那个。 所以，嗯，所以我们可以，你基本上可以， 你不必把它念出来， 但你可以下载它， 然后把它喂给一个 AI， 它会、会给你做摘要， 或者你可以问它问题。 你知道，什么、什么是， 我们在讨论这个主题时说了什么，

or I'm doing this kind of artwork, can I apply the affirmative strategy that we talked about? How could I do that and then you can use the material as a source material for your, uh, for your AI or your research. That's how I, how I do it. So again, yesterday was extremely interesting day because we were discussing in small groups

或者我在做这种艺术作品， 我能不能应用那种肯定式策略， 就是我们谈过的那种？ 我该怎么做， 然后你就可以用这些材料， 作为你的源材料，呃， 用于你的 AI 或你的研究。 这就是我、我的做法。 所以再说一次，昨天是非常有意思的一天， 因为我们在小组里讨论，

and I'm gonna, I'm, I use then the, the day from yesterday because not everybody was in these small groups. In order to create a lecture for today. So we're gonna do that now. And I wanna do two parts. So it doesn't get too heavy.

而我会、我、我就用那个， 昨天的那一天， 因为不是所有人都参加这些小组。 为了为今天创作一场讲座。 所以我们现在就要做这个。 而且我想分成两部分。 这样就不会太重。

I wanna do, um, Um, yeah. So we're gonna synthesize today.

我想做，嗯，嗯，对。 所以我们今天要做综合整理。

Um, so it's one subject, but we're gonna have two parts. Yeah. So part room is what, what's said in the small rooms, in the small gatherings between, uh, uh, you were also, you were there once when we talked, um, uh, uh, yeah, the others are not here right now. But, uh, they were not, they're not from the workshop.

嗯，所以这是一个主题， 但我们会分成两部分。 对。 所以"部分"部分就是，小组里说了什么， 在小组里、在小型聚会中， 在，呃，呃，你也在， 我们聊天时你也在场过一次， 嗯，呃，呃，对， 其他人现在不在。 但是，呃，他们不在， 他们不是工作坊的人。

They were really curious about certain things. And then we, we talked for like 15, 20, 30 minutes. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna talk about that because not everybody heard that. And then I'm gonna that's gonna be like 10 minutes and then I'm gonna give you a little bit of time so you can talk with each other.

他们对某些事情非常好奇。 然后我们聊了大概15、20、30分钟。 所以我会、我会讲这个， 因为不是每个人都听到了。 然后我会讲大概10分钟， 然后我会给你一点时间， 这样你们可以互相聊一聊。

I don't have constant talking. And then we're gonna do part two which is basically, uh, one subject, not two.

我没有一直在说话。 然后我们会做第二部分， 基本上是，呃，一个主题，不是两个。

Um, because. The workshop was like, uh, it looked like a twopart workshop, you know, first we talked about a lot about vibe, feel. And second part we more like yesterday and the day before we more talked about governance. And like systems, how they like, how we make rules and how we work together. And I'm gonna kind of try to fuse that together.

嗯，因为。 那个工作坊吧，呃，看起来像是两部分的工作坊， 你知道，一开始我们主要聊了氛围和感觉。 而第二部分，就像昨天和前一天一样， 我们更多聊了治理。 还有系统，比如它们怎么—— 我们怎么制定规则，以及我们如何协作。 我会尽量把这些融合在一起。

So I. Oh, I'm gonna give you this place here. Yeah. So that's that. And then, um, and then what we're gonna do so. Oh, what's the schedule? So we're gonna work until 11:30 or 12:00? Uh. I forgot. 11:45? 11:45. And then start at? Uh, yeah. At one or 1:30 again? I think we can start and two, 2:30. 2:30.

所以我。 哦，我把这里给你放一下。 对。 就这样。 然后，嗯，然后我们要做的是， 所以。 哦，日程是什么？ 所以我们要工作到11:30还是12:00？ 呃。 我忘了。 11:45？ 11:45。 然后从几点开始？ 呃，对。 还是1点还是1:30？ 我觉得我们可以从2点开始，2:30。 2:30。

Oh. Just like a— Oh, so we have a really long break. Yeah. Uhhuh. I think. 2:30 to 5:00 then we do. Yeah. Okay. Um, yeah. So in the morning we're gonna do a lot of like talking now. And then the afternoon is really gonna be your work session. And then in the end, I just wanna do one round where you, where you really present what did you do,

哦。 就像一个—— 哦，所以我们休息时间会很长。 对。 嗯哼。 我觉得。 那我们就从2:30到5:00。 对。 好。 嗯，对。 所以早上我们会聊很多。 然后下午主要是你的工作环节。 最后我只想做一轮， 让你真正展示你做了什么，

do you have something? Um, do you have something like a running thing or do you have a charter, you know, like a statement where you describe your system and your, your governance system and your running system or your, your position in the whole thing? And it's, it's totally okay if it's just a few words

你有没有什么要讲的？ 嗯，你有没有什么要做的跑步之类的， 或者你有没有什么简报，你知道， 比如一段陈述，用来描述你的系统， 以及你的治理系统， 还有你的跑步系统，或者你的职位， 在整个项目里？ 而且只要几句话也完全可以，

or if it's just a, a, a draft or something. Or if it's something that is actually working, you know. And it's possible to do in the afternoon to do something with AI. You can do a, you can get a, a little website up in, in, in two hours. No problem. Yeah. If you want. Sorry. Um, it's a long translation.

或者只是一个草稿之类的也行。 或者是那种真的能用的东西，你懂的。 下午也可以做， 用AI做点什么。 你可以做一个，你可以把一个小网站做起来， 两小时就能上线。 没问题。 对。 如果你愿意的话。 抱歉。 嗯，这翻得有点长。

Oh. Do you wanna—

哦。 你想—— 对，不是跑步。Running system。 就是。 就是正在进行中运行中。 哦。

Right, not running—running system. Exactly. It's currently running. Oh. Okay.

好。

So if. Yeah. So we'll start with this, uh, part one. It's what was said in the small rooms. So yesterday we were not here. We were inside Smooth. Yeah. Walking through the show. And most of what got said was got said in small groups. Three or four of you standing in front of one screen. With the translation.

所以如果。 对。 那我们先从这个，呃，第一部分开始。 就是小组里说的那些内容。 所以昨天我们不在这里。 我们在Smooth里面。 对。 在走过展览。 而且大部分内容都是小组里说的。 你们三四个人站在一块屏幕前。 带着翻译。

And we talk with each other intensively. Yeah. So the, the rest of the room never heard it or the rest of the people. So I'm gonna start to say by saying some of it out loud to everyone. Because it belongs to all of you. It's a collective process that we are doing here. So this is common goods. That we are producing together.

然后我们彼此高度交流。 对。 所以房间里其他人从来没听到过， 或者其他人也没听到。 所以我会开始大声说出其中一部分， 对大家说。 因为这属于你们所有人。 这是我们在这里一起进行的共同过程。 所以这是共同的好处。 这是我们一起创造出来的。

And it doesn't have an owner. It's just for everybody. So first someone asked me and now I'm talking about the Smooth exhibition. Why there are doves in the video? Yeah. So doves mean peace. Doves mean purity. So why put them in a show about Smooth machines? And my answer was they don't mean peace here.

而且没有任何人负责。 就是为了大家。 所以一开始有人问了我， 现在我在讲Smooth展览。 为什么视频里有鸽子？ 对。 所以鸽子象征和平。 鸽子象征纯净。 那为什么要把它们放在一个关于Smooth机器的展览里？ 我的回答是：这里它们并不代表和平。

They don't mean anything here and that is the point. I call this generic. Maybe there is a, an explanation or like a, a good, uh, translation for that. I'll try to describe it. Like a dove or a CocaCola bottle or a doll. These are objects that have been used so many times that the meaning has been rubbed off them.

这里它们并不代表任何东西， 这就是重点。 我把这称为很笼统。 也许有个解释， 或者说一个很好的翻译。 我会试着解释一下。 比如一只鸽子，或者一瓶可口可乐， 或者一个娃娃。 这些都是被用过太多次的物体， 意义都被磨掉了。

They are kind of empty. They're like an empty vessel. And because they are empty, you can put their, your own feelings into them. You can project whatever you want onto them.

它们有点空。 就像一个空容器。 而因为它们是空的， 你可以把你自己的感受放进去。 你想投射什么都可以投射到它们身上。

So even if I say the doves don't mean peace, you can look at them and say, yeah, but for me it means peace. And that's right then. Because it's about what you feel and see and not about what I say that you should feel and see.

所以即使我说鸽子不代表和平， 你也可以看着它们说， 对，但对我来说它代表和平。 那就对了。 因为这关乎你感受到的和看到的， 而不是我说你应该感受和看到什么。

And exactly this ideology or this strategy matters for everything we have done this week. A Smooth surface is not empty because the makers had nothing to say. You know me now. I can talk for hours. I have a lot of things to say. So it's not about that. It's emptiness on purpose. So that the feeling has to come from you

而正是这种意识形态或策略， 影响了我们这周做的所有事情。 一块平整的表面并不是空的， 不是因为创作者没什么可说的。 你现在了解我了。 我可以讲上好几个小时。 我有很多话要说。 所以不是那个意思。 这是刻意的空虚。 这样感受就必须从你自己来，

the one looking. So the blank the white the space

也就是那个在观看的人。 所以那个空白、那个白色的空间，

that is empty is a decision. Somebody. So in the case of this exhibition, UBERMORGEN chose to leave that space open. That is not the absence of an artist. That is an artist arranging where the feeling will land.

那是空的，是一个选择。 某个人。 所以就这次展览而言， UBERMORGEN选择把那个空间留开。 那不是艺术家的缺席。 那是艺术家在安排感受落在哪里。

And that connects to the question on the whole show. In a world as smooth where do the emotions go? Feeling lives in friction. Anger needs an obstacle. Joy needs a surprise. When everything is optimized, when everything arrives before you even want it, the feeling has not nowhere to catch. So it leaks at the edges.

这也和整个展览的问题相关。 在一个如此平滑的世界里，情绪会去哪里？ 感受会在摩擦中生命。 愤怒需要一个障碍。 快乐需要一个惊喜。 当一切都被优化时， 当一切在你甚至不想要的时候就到来时， 这种感觉就没有任何可抓住的地方。 所以它会在边缘上泄漏。

It shows up in the wrong place. A face slips in the wrong color for half a second. That is the emotion. Coming through the Smooth.

它会出现在错误的地方。 一张脸会滑到错误的颜色上， 哪怕只是半秒。 那就是情绪。 它通过平滑的表面流过来。

And the second thing I said in small rooms is that this one and it's harder and it's about your lives and our lives and it's not about art.

我在小组里说的第二件事是， 这一点更难， 它关乎你们的生活，也关乎我们的生活， 而不是关于艺术。

It's a social aspect of making art or of being a human being. So if you make work artistic work for example that is like five or ten years ahead of your time you will be an outsider. That is not a risk. That is a certainty. It will happen like that. Your peers will not understand it. Your friends your family your professors

这是创作艺术的一种社会层面， 或者说，作为一个人的一部分。 所以如果你创作艺术作品， 比如说，它比你的作品早了五到十年， 那你就会成为一个外行。 那不是风险。 那是确定的。 事情就会这样发生。 你的同行不会理解。 你的朋友、家人、教授，

your teachers other artists will not understand what you're doing.

老师以及其他艺术家都不会明白你在做什么。

People will look at your work and say what is that and they will laugh. They will laugh about you. They will laugh about your work. And in a culture where belonging is survival that laughter becomes really expensive for you. It hurts. It puts you outside of the group.

人们会看你的作品， 然后说：那是什么？ 他们会笑。 他们会拿你开玩笑。 他们会拿你的作品开玩笑。 而在一个"归属"是生存的文化里， 那种笑声会变得非常昂贵。 这会很痛。 它会让你脱离群体。

This is the real reason most art students never make anything really truly radical. It's not talent. The problem. It's the fear of exclusion. It's the fear of becoming an outcast of the group. Of being alone. And being ridiculed.

这就是大多数艺术学生从来不会做出真正激进的东西的真正原因。 这不是天赋。 问题在于。 是对被排斥的恐惧。 是对成为群体中被排斥者的恐惧。 对孤立自成的恐惧。 以及被嘲笑的恐惧。

So I told the students yesterday three things and I'll tell you about that. So the one thing is work in a team. Not because it's efficient it's also very efficient. And also not. A lot of communication overhead. But because a team is like a small cult. That believes you when nobody else does. You believe in each other.

所以我昨天跟学生说了三件事， 我也会跟你们讲。 第一件事是：要在团队里工作。 不是因为它高效， 也不是因为它非常高效。 也不是。 需要大量的沟通与压力。 而是因为团队就像一个小教团。 当别人都不信你时，他们就会相信你。 你们彼此相信。

It holds you up when the room laughs. Alone you will break. It's too much pressure. Almost nobody can take that. To be out there alone in the forest and it's cold. And nobody helps you. And they even make fun of you. But in a team you have people that are in the same situation. And you help each other.

当全场都在笑时，它会支撑你们。 你一个人会崩溃。 压力太大了。 几乎没人能承受。 独自在森林里站在外面， 而且很冷。 而且没人帮你。 他们甚至还会嘲笑你。 但在团队里，你会有一些人处在同样的处境。 你们彼此帮助。

And that makes it possible to do things

这就让你们能够去做一些事情，

that are outside of what uh. The big group accepts. So together you can be very strange

这些事情超出了你们本来的范围。 超出了大群体所接受的。 所以在一起时，你们可能会变得很奇怪，

from very very many years. Second point I made was separate your friends from your competitors. Your real friends love you no matter what you make. It's like family. They accept you.

而且会持续很多很多年。 我提出的第二点是：把你的朋友和竞争对手分开。 真正的朋友不管你做什么都会爱你。 就像家人一样。 他们会接纳你。

I mean I know. I know. Lots of problematic families too. But from the principle. Unconditional love unconditional acceptance. You are accepted just because you are you. Because I like you. Because you're you're my friend or you're my family. Yeah. So your real friends love you no matter what you make.

我是说，我知道。 我知道。 也有很多有问题的家庭。 但从原则上讲。 无条件的爱，无条件的接纳。 你之所以被接纳，只是因为你就是你。 因为我喜欢你。 因为你是我的朋友，或者你是我的家人。 对。 所以你的真正朋友不管你做什么都会爱你。

Your artist friends and these are also the students here. They are your rivals. They are your competition. Do not confuse the two. Or you will be hurt in a way you don't you don't need to be hurt. And it's tricky. It's very tricky. Because sometimes you meet uh your best friends for life in the art school.

你的艺术朋友——这里也包括学生—— 他们是你的对手。 他们是你的竞争对手。 别把这两者混为一谈。 否则你会以一种你不需要受伤的方式受伤。 而这很棘手。 非常棘手。 因为有时候，你会遇到那些一辈子都是你最好的朋友， 是在艺术学校里。

And then how does that fucking work. I cannot explain that to you. You have to figure it out yourself. But you're capable. If you have a good intuition you will feel if someone is honest. And if it's just about friendship. And sometimes you start to work with your best friends and it gets very confusing.

那这他妈到底怎么运作？ 我没法跟你解释。 你得自己想明白。 但你有能力。 如果你直觉很好，你就会感觉到， 当一个人是否诚实。 而且如果这只是关于友谊。 有时候你会开始和你最好的朋友一起工作， 结果就会变得非常混乱。

But this is also part of the radical experiment. You you have to figure that out. And the third point I make is have idols. But radical ones. Yeah. And don't copy them. Take the fire from them. And mix it with your own thing. A copy is a safe thing and it's a dead thing. Because these idols are also are already old.

但这也是"激进实验"的一部分。 你必须把这个弄明白。 我提出的第三点是：要有偶像。 但要是那种很激进的。 对。 别学他们。 从他们身上汲取那股火。 再把它和你自己的东西融合起来。 模仿是一件安全的事， 但它也是死的。 因为这些偶像其实也已经很老了。

You know. They're already usually they're already or or very successful or something. Yeah. So a copy of that is just is it doesn't work. But yeah. A mixture is very dangerous. And alive. And with dangerous I mean positively dangerous.

你知道的。 他们通常已经很成功了， 或者类似的。 对。 所以模仿这种东西根本行不通。 不过，是的。 混在一起非常危险。 而且是活的。 我说的危险，是那种明显的危险。

So I'm telling you the truth about this because nobody told me gently. And I want you to hear it at least once before it costs you a lot. It can cost you the career as an artist. It can cost you too many friendships. It can cost you emotionally. It can cost you mentally. Only about 2% of the people who study art

所以我告诉你这件事的真相， 因为从来没人温柔地告诉过我。 我希望你至少听一次， 在让你付出很大代价之前。 这可能会让你失去作为艺术家的职业生涯。 也可能让你失去太多友谊。 它会在情感上伤害你。 它也会让你精神上受损。 只有大约2%的学习艺术的人

will be making art in 20 years. I mean art in the sense of professionally make art. Not as a hobby. And the difference is almost never talent. You're all talented. You're all you're all special. That's not the point. Yeah. You're all great people.

会在20年后创作艺术作品。 我是说，艺术——从专业意义上说的艺术创作。 不是当作爱好。 而差别几乎从来不在于天赋。 你们都很有天赋。 你们都很特别。 重点不在这里。 对。 你们都是很棒的人。

And you're all ambitious. The difference is whether you can survive being misunderstood. That is a real skill. You can build it. Start now in this room with these people because you already survived being really in a strange situation the whole week. You didn't know and I didn't know where we're going to go.

而且你们都很有野心。 差别在于你能不能撑下去， 即便被人误解。 这才是真正的技能。 你可以把它建立起来。 现在就在这个房间里，和这些人一起开始， 因为你已经挺过了一段非常奇怪的处境， 整整一周。 你不知道，我也不知道， 我们会走向哪里。

A lot of people left because it was uncomfortable for them or they had other things to do. But mainly because it's like I don't know what they're what we're doing here. Is it like a production thing? Is it like why is he telling us these weird things and then it becomes too much and then you leave. You know because you get overwhelmed.

很多人离开了， 因为他们觉得不舒服， 或者他们还有别的事要做。 但主要是因为感觉就像， 我不知道他们——我们在这里到底在做什么。 这是不是类似制作的事情？ 是不是说他为什么要跟我们说这些奇怪的话， 然后就变得太过了， 然后你就走了。 你知道的，因为你会被压得喘不过气。

And I understand that. It's fine. I'm happy with 5 10 people. In the end again as I said it's 2%. You know so out of 100 that's two people. It's not a lot. So that that concludes the first part that I want to tell you. Now I sound like a preacher. When I talk like that because I'm very passionate about the things I do not tell you

我理解这一点。 没关系。 我对5到10个人也满意。 最后，还是像我说的那样， 只有2%。 你知道，100个人里， 就只有两个人。 这不算多。 所以，这就结束了第一部分， 也就是我想告诉你的内容。 现在我听起来像个传道人。 我这样说是因为我非常热衷， 关于那些我不会告诉你的东西，

the truth I don't have the truth it's not true what I tell you. These are things that I want you to hear once so you can take them in process them in your way and make up your mind the way you think is right not the way I think is right that's very important I'm not a preacher I'm not a cult leader I'm not someone who knows everything

那些我没有真相的真理， 我说的并不是真的。 这些是我希望你听一次的东西， 这样你就能把它们吸收进去， 按你自己的方式去处理， 并在你认为正确的方式上下定决心， 而不是按我认为正确的方式， 这非常重要， 我不是传道人，我也不是教团领袖， 我不是那种什么都懂的人，

not at all I make so many mistakes in my life I paid a high price for many things for many mistakes that I made but I'm very passionate about exactly these things we also talked in the beginning about uh looking at the world in an open way being affirmative towards the world rather than very very distance

完全不是。 我这辈子犯了很多错误， 我付出了很高的代价， 为很多事情、很多错误， 为我犯下的那些错误， 但我对这些事情非常热衷， 我们一开始也谈过， 比如去看待世界， 以一种开放的方式， 对世界保持肯定的态度， 而不是保持非常非常疏远的距离，

and it has a lot to do with your individual psychology with where you come from with the history with the socialization who you are how you then going to make your thing and what I'm saying here doesn't necessarily count for people who for example want to be super successful in the art market because the art market has very different requirements

这和你个人的心理有很大关系， 也和你来自哪里有关， 和历史有关， 和社会化有关， 你是谁、你接下来要怎么做你的东西， 而我在这里说的，并不一定适用于 比如那些想要变得超级成功的人， 在艺术市场里， 因为艺术市场的要求非常不同，

but also in business no risk no reward that is a truth that that I can say yeah you have to be smart and you have to be doing moves um that. Where you can lose a lot only then you can win and I'm very aware that I'm a man so I have this kind of aggressive posture so for uh other men that don't want to be this aggressive

但在商业里也是如此， 没有风险，没有回报， 这就是事实， 这一点我可以说， 对，你得聪明， 你得做出一些动作， 嗯，就是这样。 在这种情况下你可能会亏很多， 只有那样你才能赢， 而且我很清楚我是个男人， 所以我会保持一种比较强硬的姿态， 所以对其他男人来说， 那些不想这么强硬的人，

and for for for women and for people in between um or outside

以及对女性来说， 还有介于中间的人， 嗯，或者在外面的人，

these kind of binary. Gender idea

这种二元对立。 性别观念，

um it's. A translation thing. Okay. I I I was uh I was raised in a binary world um I consider myself a man and I do use some kind of aggressive strategies um I don't like them that much um I want to say that in order to. To translate that it's not about aggression the the risktaking and what I'm saying here

嗯，就是这样。 这是一种"翻译"的问题。 好。 我、我、我，呃，我是在......长大的， 在一个二元的世界里， 嗯，我把自己当成男人， 而且我确实会用一些很强硬的策略， 嗯，我也不太喜欢这些， 嗯，我想这么说， 为了...... 来说明这不是关于强硬， 也不是关于冒险， 而我在这里说的，

can also be coded in a very different style with the same content basically and I'm going to stop here now and I'm going to leave you to talk a little bit about about what you feel now or what you whatever I'm going to kind of leave the room because I I've seen that it's much better for the group dynamics

也可以用一种很不同的方式来表达， 基本上内容是一样的， 我现在就到这里， 然后让你再多说一点， 说说你现在的感受， 或者你......随便说。 我会先离开这个房间， 因为我看到这样会好很多， 对团队互动更有帮助，

if you can talk without the teacher in the room um and then in I don't know 15 minutes or so we're going to we're going to do the part two okay and I'll leave that running if that's okay so I can also participate later in the in the discussion

如果你能在房间里不让老师在场就说， 嗯，然后大概15分钟左右， 我们就要做第二部分， 好，我就先让它继续， 如果你觉得可以的话。 这样我之后也能参与讨论，

. Cool. Okay.

好。 好。

Okay. What did you kind of.

好。 你刚才大概...... 那个网站那个是不是今天的？ 嗯，我觉得他不一定要出来的实体，他可能就有点草稿。 刚才说他这个 workshop 他已经决定

Is that website today's? Mm, I don't think it has to be a physical thing that has to come out, it might just be a bit of a draft. You said earlier that for this workshop, he's already decided

他自己会在这里跟。

he'll be here himself, and...

我觉得他把那种谈话当成作为。 作品的一部分，而且这个工作坊的关键也不是在做一个什么，是在联系粉丝那种对话之间不停的迭代这种关系。 他说这个就这一周大家都有点不太清楚到底要干嘛。 他说就是处理这种不确定性的这个能力，

I think he treats that kind of conversation as... Part of the work, and the key of this workshop isn't about doing something like that, it's about continuously iterating on relationships in conversations with fans. He said that this week everyone isn't really clear about what to do. He said it's about working on the ability to handle uncertainty,

其实很重要。 也就是你们已经在这方面有进步，或者说你已经忍受了一周了。

which is actually very important. Meaning you've already made progress in this area, or rather, you've been enduring it for a week already.

然后他觉得这个能力就。

And then he feels that this ability...

就是决定你日后会成为就是艺术。 家一直留在这个职业里面的一个关键的能力之一。

Is what determines what you'll become in the future—art. One of the key skills that stays in this profession all along.

嗯。

Mm.

挺好。 我感觉在在中国教育系统里找这种房子，以一个平等的对话去进行。 这是老师讲的，我们在下面记。 早年的时候是没有翻译，我就问他说就是他在欧洲他教的那些学生，你们那些学生是不是也是用法式这个完成，他觉得我们中国的学生非常有竞争性，

That's pretty good. I feel that in the Chinese education system, finding a place like this, is done through an equal conversation. That's what the teacher said, we'll write it down below. Back in the early days, there was no translation, so I asked him about the students he taught in Europe, whether those students also used French to complete it, and he felt that Chinese students are very competitive,

就很有野心，对对对，然后他们欧洲人都躺平了。 绝对不会周末来上课什么的。

very ambitious, yeah, yeah, yeah, and then they—the Europeans—just laid it all on the table. They definitely wouldn't come to class on weekends or anything.

有没有认真的上课？ 他们觉得是非常的内向的。 就明显的。 如果他觉得将来中国肯定很厉害，就是艺术方面。 你给我点水。 哎，我这里有。 啊。 有。 有新的。

Did they actually attend classes seriously? They felt they were very introverted. It was obvious. If he feels that China will definitely be great in the future, especially in the arts field. Give me some water. Hey, I've got some here. Ah. Yes. There's something new.

我想。

I think...

这是你自己才是很躺平的。 居然觉得是比较有信心。 那不过我觉得确实竞争性这边要大。 对。 因为你想一下可能从呃我们应试教育开始到现在，都一直保持这种竞争状态。 嗯。 其实也不是竞争状态，你不想也处于落后的状态。

It's you who's really laid it on the table. You actually feel pretty confident. But I do think the competitiveness side really needs to be strong. Right. Because if you think about it, from our entrance exam education up to now, it's always kept this kind of competition going. Mm. It's not really a competition, you don't want to be left behind either.

积极的状态。 不得不紧张。 对。

An active state. You have to be nervous. Right.

是一种莫名的习惯吧。

It's kind of an inexplicable habit.

我们讨论啥呀？

What are we discussing?

别别聊聊。 对，今天很多人要考试。 嗯。

No, no—just chat. Right, a lot of people have exams today. Mm.

其实昨天想明天考。

Actually, yesterday I was thinking of taking it tomorrow.

一会我就可以聊。 嗯。 大家有真的想做艺术家的，就100%我觉得肯定要做艺术家这种状态。 100%我觉得你这个态度。 很少有人会考虑100%。 对。 100%我一定要做艺术家的话，那活得。 那你们现在状态是什么？

I can talk in a bit. Mm. If anyone really wants to be an artist, then 100% I think you definitely need to be in an artist state. 100%—I think your attitude is... Very few people would consider it 100%. Right. If I absolutely have to be an artist 100%, then living... So what's your current state?

就是我这个状态。 咋样活着就咋样。 哈哈哈。 很舒服的。 啊。 假如我家财万贯，我就可以100%。

It's my current state. However you live, that's how it is. Hahaha. It's very comfortable. Ah. If my family were very wealthy, I could be 100%.

嗯。 我持续工作，然后慢慢努力的东西就好。 嗯。 然后就占据到大了。 一些东西没有时间去做一些什么。 但是我觉得这并不是好。 对，这个也算。只要你确实很想做，那其实任何东西都没关系。 到目前。 看我心里真的想不想做。

Mm. I keep working, and then slowly working hard makes things better. Mm. And then it ends up taking up a big part. Some things don't have time to do anything. But I don't think that's good. Right, that counts too. As long as you really want to do it, then really anything is fine. Up to now. See whether I truly want to do it.

我觉得看选择吧。就是面对不同情况下， 就是虽然都会有生活的压力，我们有了，但是如果因为压力太大的话，就会做出来并不是最适合自己的选择。 主要的是把压力就不吃压力，然后做选择。 但这一点已经很难了。 对对。

I think it depends on the choice. In different situations, even though there's always life pressure, we have it, but if the pressure is too heavy, what you do ends up not being the best choice for you. The main thing is not to take the pressure, and then make the choices. But that alone is already very hard. Right, right.

而且人极力的会。 就是当你工作的时候，你精力已经被很多很多吸收，其实就像很开启一个另外一个世界去，是回到创作的方面，然后去做一些事情。 其实还蛮。 确实。 所以我还。 还在忙，就有时候没有空去家庭治疗。

And people will do their utmost. When you're working, your energy is already absorbed a lot, it's like opening up to another world, going back to the creative side, and doing some things. Actually, it's pretty... Indeed. So I still... I'm still busy, so sometimes I don't have time for family therapy.

你到底查八字的时候，你就你就说跟这个心理状态讲。 哎。 我还蛮好奇的，所以我也是做一样的。 我们也就三个月就这两个月，这两个月比较通畅的情况下，他就表达会比较强。 表达能力。 对，表达。所以他就很好的记住。

When you check your chart, you talk about it as being about this mental state. Hey. I'm pretty curious, so I do the same thing. For us, it's only three months—these two months, if these two months are relatively smooth, his expression will be stronger. Expressive ability. Right, expression. So he remembers it really well.

像这种水平的那种。 我有个问题，

Like that kind of level. I have a question,

就是你们创作会需要去。 怎么讲，就是你们创作那个主题，就是你们自己的创作，那个主题是你们会更看就是什么样的主题受欢迎，或者是环境比较好，

do you need to go to... How should I put it, I mean, your creative theme, your own creative work, do you focus more on which themes are popular, or which environments are better,

还是说你们想要表达自己的创作也要去去想到底要。 说什么。 我我个人来讲，就是因为自己想过很高深的东西，我后来发现我最本质的让你想让自己在同一个人看下来更时尚，更潮流一点。 我觉得这是我最根本的动机。 哈哈。

or do you want to think through what you want to express in your work? What to say. Personally, because I've thought about very profound things, later I realized my core thing is to make you look fashionable in the same person's eyes, a bit more trendy. I think that's my most fundamental motivation. Haha.

对，就是这个决定你创作的主题的这个 idea 是从哪里来的。 或者这些思考。 我觉得因为因为我们现在大家都基本上。

Right—this is where the idea behind your creative theme comes from. Or these thoughts. I think because right now, basically, we all...

我觉得这个自己现在大家有什么新的东西。 因为还没有真正进入。 你需要靠这个艺术结论。 嗯。 就当你真的需要靠这个，你可能就没有办法，你就只靠这个。 我要做一些别的什么来获取钱啊。 嗯。 我觉得我感觉我自己相对目的性会强。

I think whatever new things everyone has now, because we haven't really entered it yet. You need to rely on this artistic conclusion. Mm. If you really need to rely on this, you might not be able to, you'll only rely on this. I'll do some other things to make money. Mm. I feel like my objectives will be stronger.

我有两两个部分，一个部分就会去关注一下现在最潮流最时尚最最热最热。 热门。 热门的一些主题方向吧。 当然这个主题方向是个大的方向，然后我在这个大的因为大的方向里面去找自己的呃想要做的比较细的一个主题。

I have two parts, one part is to focus on what's most trendy, fashionable, and hottest right now. Popular. Some popular theme directions. Of course, this theme direction is a broad one, and within that broad direction, I look for a more specific theme I want to do.

因为我觉得我的感觉就是我很少有那种自己特别想做特别主动想去做的大方向。很多时候都是外界给到一个环境背景，然后我在通过这个外界植入一些我自己的思考，然后才去做的。 然后第二个部分我觉得因为也也确实没有刚做艺术刚起步，

Because I feel I rarely have a big direction I want to do, and I'm very proactive about it. A lot of the time, the outside world gives me an environmental backdrop, and through that outside world, I plant some of my own thinking, and only then do I do it. And the second part is, because I really haven't—I've only just started in art,

我可能还是会找一些自己喜好的东西，喜好的艺术家去模仿，进行一个模仿。 那你要转换角度。 Mix。 嗯。我的状态是这种状态，没有说因为我觉得实话讲没有那么走心，我觉得我自己。 嗯。 因为我也因为有时候就是感觉自己比较是真的很走心的话，

I might still look for things I like, and imitate artists I like, to do a kind of imitation. Then you need to change angles. Mix. Mm. My state is like this, not that—because honestly I don't feel that into it, I feel like I... Mm. Because sometimes I feel like if I truly put my heart into it,

很难。

it's hard.

因为你很难在一个清醒的状态下知道自己自己想要想要想要什么。有时候可能他很多东西干扰的。 你要说走心的时候。 因为太多对干扰和杂念。 对。 然后你感觉自己很走心，某一种角度去思考，你好像其实也很功功利。 然后我觉得但是有意思的是这种东西，

Because it's hard to know what you want in a clear state. Sometimes a lot of things interfere with it. When you say "put your heart into it." Because there are too many distractions and scattered thoughts. Right. And when you feel like you're really into it, and think about it from a certain angle, it seems like you're actually pretty utilitarian too. But what's interesting is that this kind of thing,

你把它一直这么做，做完以后你去回顾的时候沉淀下来的时候，就是你总结你之前每次可以说是陷入某种偏执啊，走心的东西的时候，做一个回顾的时候，那个时候往往是一个比较客观的评价。 对，对于自己在做的事情和自己来说，

when you keep doing it like this, and when you look back and it settles, you summarize that every time you fell into some kind of obsession, or something that made you focus, and when you do a reflection, that's often a relatively objective assessment. Right—about what you're doing, and for yourself,

就是回顾这些所有东西的集合，反而是比较客观。所以我觉得该那个什么偏执啊，什么势力走心什么的都该就该很多时间都会过去。 嗯。那你喜欢比较有意思。 嗯。 嗯。 但是我觉得只要是人都会回顾，就不管你那个时候做了什么事情，

it's a collection of all those things you look back at, and that's actually more objective. So I think that obsession, you know, and that kind of focus and all that, will pass away over time. Mm. Then you like something more interesting. Mm. Mm. But I think as long as you're a person, you'll look back, no matter what you did back then,

都会回顾。就哪怕什么都没做，哪怕。 去玩了也会回顾。然后在于如何总结。 嗯。哈哈哈。那我感觉我自己自己的体感和故事就比较少。因为我感觉我我的状态经常是很匆忙。 嗯。 然后因为我觉得给到回顾的，我回顾的时间很少，

you'll look back. Even if you did nothing, even if... Even if you went out to have fun, you'll still look back. And then it's about how to summarize it. Mm. Hahaha. I feel like my own experience and stories are pretty limited. Because I feel like my state is often very rushed. Mm. And because I feel that when you give back, I look back very little,

有时候回顾都是临时挤时间去逼迫自己去回顾。因为有时候我感觉我的状态是很很少停下来往回看。 就是不太想要。 对，有时候做就做了，感觉就算很糟糕也不会去想它。 但是我觉得回顾它并不是说一定要抽出来长段时间去回顾，

sometimes it's just a lastminute rush to force myself to look back. Because sometimes I feel like I rarely stop to look back. I just don't really want to. Right, sometimes I just do it, and even if it's terrible, I don't think about it. But I think looking back doesn't mean you have to take a long time to look back,

它是只是几分钟的。 是抽查参观了你每天的一个呃零显，比如说早上或者晚上。 嗯。 我觉得只有在这种深度交流的时候可能会回顾一下。 嗯。 平时就是我觉得我经常是那种当机的状态，所以是这个方面。 现在就回顾。

it's just a few minutes. It's like you briefly check in on a small part of your everyday life, for example in the morning or in the evening. Mm. I think only in deep conversation like this would I look back a bit. Mm. Otherwise, I feel like I'm often in that freezing state, so that's one aspect. Right now, I'm looking back.

对，现在就是肯定会有回顾，会想一想自己会做做什么，然后去总结一些规律，包括比如说在回头去做一下自己的作品集的时候，就会回顾。 每一年。 对，然后每一年做这个东西，它变化很大。就是你会发现你第一年你觉得是这么分类，

Right, right now I'll definitely be looking back, thinking about what I would do, and summarizing some patterns, including when I look back and review my portfolio, I'll look back. Every year. Right, and every year I do this, and it changes a lot. You'll find that in the first year you think it's this categorized,

到第二年你觉得哇塞，之前我为什么要这么分类，根本不理解之前是为什么，然后又重新再搞一遍。 这种状态。 那你觉得你第二年比第一年是进步了吗？ 你不觉得说第一年那种分类很不好，其实是比第二年的看。 可能也不是认知而是会发现呃嗯，

and by the second year you're like, wow, why did I categorize it like this before, I didn't understand why it was like that before, and then I do it all over again. That kind of state. So do you think you've improved compared to the first year? Don't you think the first year's categorization was really bad, and that's actually better than the second year? Maybe it's not so much cognition, but rather you realize, uh, mm,

就是我东西又变多了，然后之前呢就不兼容了那个版本。就比如说很简单一个例子，可能之前一一部分时间是绘画，然后突然有一段时间沉迷于做什么装置，做一些行为。你发现作品集如果按一个时间线的这个逻辑去排布的话，它好像不是那么清晰，

that I've gotten more stuff, and before that it just wasn't compatible with that version. For example, a very simple example: earlier I spent some time on drawing, then suddenly for a while I got obsessed with doing installations, doing certain things. You realize that if you lay your portfolio out along a timeline logic, it doesn't seem as clear,

你就开始把这个版本去改，就把它分类啊，绘画的这一部分，装置这一部分。那到后面的时候发现你这个东西做的都很杂，所以你会发现哎，哇，更每一部分好像它有各自的一个母题或者主题。你觉得你每一届来分好像又不够了，

so you start changing that version, categorizing it—the drawing part, and the installation part. But later you find you've made everything really messy, so you realize, like, wow, each part seems to have its own mother theme or theme. You feel like each year's version still isn't enough,

你又开始又又又再做一轮转化，不停的这样子转化。可能甚至到了一些呃，像我现在更新别单会往我个人的一个成长的方向去思考。 作品集的关系。 嗯。

so you start another round of transformation, constantly transforming like that. It might even get to the point where, uh, like now, in my updates, I start thinking in a more personal direction of growth. The relationship with the portfolio. Mm.

没有。

No.

最好好幸运就广东人。 你说什么？他说大运未到。 大运未到。 就是那种。 Oh my god。 十年大运吗？ 怎么又靠柜子来解释。 不过。 其实这些我也是。 嗯。 这就是你刚刚说的算命和面相的多重一点。

If you're lucky, you're Cantonese. What did you say? He said the big good fortune hasn't arrived yet. The big good fortune hasn't arrived yet. That kind of thing. Oh my God. A tenyear big fortune? Why are you explaining it again using a case? But. Actually, I'm the same with these too. Mm. That's kind of the multiple aspects you mentioned—like fortunetelling and facial expressions.

讨论还是看相的。 哈哈哈。 然后我觉得工作坊就是这种工作坊的感觉，就是它相比课程来讲，它会更轻松一点。 嗯。 对，我说我觉得课程可以上的很随便，反倒是那种工作坊，哪怕我是作为一个跟跟听者，就是呃管理者来讲，

Discussion or looking at facial expressions. Hahaha. And I think the workshop—the vibe of this kind of workshop— compared to a course, it feels a bit more relaxed. Mm. Right, I think you can take a course pretty casually, whereas a workshop, even if I'm just listening, as a manager, uh,

我都觉得会比我平时上课要认真很多。 我觉得我只是想搞笑一点，就是我们课程的话，这个这个总结要求一定要做这些东西出来。工作坊的话，由于是大家共唱的，所以做不出来东西无所谓。 嗯。 也可以这么说。 就是它可能是针对这个工作坊，

I still feel it's much more serious than classes I usually have. I think I just want to be a bit funny, because in our course, for this summary requirement, you have to make these things out. But in a workshop, since everyone sings along, it's fine if you can't make anything out. Mm. You could put it that way too. It might be aimed at this workshop,

但前面有些工作坊它有很强相关，但是我觉得它那种状态不一样。 就是它有一种感觉，我觉得大家都不不再把自己当做是一个学生的状态。

but some earlier workshops are strongly related, but I feel the state of it is different. It has this feeling, that everyone no longer treats themselves as students. Yeah.

对。 感觉是有点。 对，然后我我会感觉可能在课程上，包括因为我之前我经我的身份很奇怪，就是学生和老师之间会来回转换。在学生状态的时候就很在意老师的看法，但作为老师的时候更加混乱。我都不知道该该怎么去去交流。

It feels like there's a bit of that. Right, and I feel that in the course, including because my identity used to be kind of weird, there were backandforth switches between students and teachers. When I was a student, I really cared about the teacher's opinions, but as a teacher it was even more chaotic. I didn't even know how to communicate.

你这些回顾都挺。 嗯。 哎，我还有一个问题，就是我我自己觉得，刚刚有我数学三年里比较大，我觉得还挺重要的。就是他刚刚讲，他说你不是要找到你的朋友，然后那个朋友可以无条件的支持你，给你无条件的爱那种吗？

All these reviews of yours are pretty... Mm. Hey, I have another question, I personally think that, earlier, in my math class, I was pretty strong, and I think that's quite important. Like he just said, he said you're not supposed to find your friend, and that friend can support you unconditionally, and give you unconditional love—like that?

这个好。 对，我我就是想说，如果我想象当中如果一个艺术家，他找到了这种很100%的安全感，他可能就不太会创作。 就可能就是因为没有这个东西，所以大家可能。 对。 就需要。 还是我我不知道你们怎么想。 我觉得100%安全感，

That's good. Right, what I'm saying is, if, in my imagination, an artist finds this 100% safety feeling, he probably wouldn't really create. It might be because he doesn't have that, so people might... Right. ...need to... I still don't know what you all think. I think 100% safety feeling—

听都没听过屁。 嗯嗯。 OK。 嗯。 我我我感觉就是你听一个小组，尽管什么都说，小小组的明面是挺你的，但是背地里不一定。 就是他说的那个艺术上的朋友吗？那可能就是你的竞争者。 但是你看那个翻译。 又他又需要。

I've never heard of that at all. Mmhmm. OK. Mm. I feel like when you listen to a small group, they say everything, the outside of the small group is pretty much you, but behind the scenes it's not necessarily you. Is that what he meant by an artistic friend? Then that might be your competitor. But look at that translation. And he also needs...

来跟你组成一个小组。你这个挺难的。 嗯。 不是他他说的，你要把你自己的那个表达也能的朋友啊，那个艺术家的朋友分开。 嗯。 可是他又想要我们就是建议我们要去。 这个。 嗯。 那其实这个就很难呀。 因为艺术家。

...someone to form a small group with you. That's pretty hard for you. Mm. No, what he said is, you need to bring your own friends who can express yourself, and separate the artist's friends. Mm. But he also wants us to suggest that we should... ...this. Mm. But actually, that's really hard. Because an artist...

朋友本身就带有竞争关系。 嗯。 他们要怎么去合作，怎么解决。 可能跟他身边加入一些问题。 管他说的真正的。 我觉得他所指艺术家朋友比较很多时候也是包括一种没有进入到真正亲密关系里，但是也能够成为朋友的一部分。

...already has competitive relationships with friends. Mm. How are they supposed to collaborate, and how do they solve it? Maybe add some issues around him. Who cares what he actually says. I think the "artist friends" he means often includes people who haven't really entered a genuinely intimate relationship, but who can still be part of the group.

确实。 嗯。 所以其实他就是还要再再次筛选。 应该是就是肯定有那种同样都是做的艺术家，但也真的可以批量的来的朋友，但是也有一部分是并没有真的，你没有用大量的时间跟精力去考验短暂的，然后就不能快速的把情感投入进去，

That's true. Mm. So basically, he still has to screen again and again. I mean, there are definitely artists who do the same thing, but there are also friends who can really come in bulk, and there's also a part that isn't really... you don't spend a lot of time and energy testing something shortlived, so you can't quickly put your emotion into it,

要不然很容易受伤。 他不是前面有说过一个例子，就是说他做的作数。 嗯。 没得接受你的作品的时候，就只有一个小组的人会回去。 就是他就觉得。 小组要重要，不能被。 他不是你。 但是大家其实。 啊，那你是他可能指就是你的你们创作的主题，

otherwise you can get hurt easily. Didn't he mention an example earlier, where what he does counts? Mm. When he can't accept your work, only a small group of people will go back. That's what he feels. A small group is important, it can't be ignored. He's not you. But actually, everyone... Ah, so he might be referring to your creative themes,

可能就是有点呃，like，就是有点激进，或者说超前。 对，也有可能是态度。你装很淡，但是。 对。 因为小组带的那几个。 对。 所以就会发支持。 对。 对。 应该是。 100%。 对。 是。我感觉我们在这个网上就在这个样子。

maybe kind of, uh, like, a bit radical, or even a bit ahead of the time. Right, it could also be an attitude. You act very calm, but... Right. Because the few people in the small group... Right. So they'll show support. Right. Right. It should be. 100%. Right. Yeah. I feel like we're like this online.

你们一起来收回。 哈哈哈。 某种程度也算是一种互相无条件的接。 嗯，就是只要我们有一种合理的叙事，我们又变得高大上起来了。 对不对。 互相为互相辩解。 互相为互相兜底。 你觉得他那个找了什么时候，我们这一桌不知道干什么，

You all come back together. Hahaha. To some extent, it's also a kind of unconditional acceptance. Mm, as long as we have a reasonable narrative, we end up looking more luxurious and higherend. Right? We explain ourselves to each other. We back each other up. Do you think when he found someone, we at this table wouldn't know what to do,

然后这其实也是在work，就是有点。 挺有意思的。 哈哈哈。 在会上的拼桌找资源其实我哈哈哈。 这个翻译没翻译出来。 哈哈哈。 那非常。 哈哈哈。 他自己去查。 哈哈哈。

and that's actually also work, it's kind of... That's pretty interesting. Hahaha. At the meeting, at the table, looking for resources—hahaha. I couldn't translate this out. Hahaha. That's very... Hahaha. He'll look it up himself. Hahaha.

讲粤语他能吗？ 十年出来。 今晚反看那个翻译的时候。 头雾水。 问他讲什么。 嗯。 挺好。 那不过我觉得现状来讲，小组真的很有必要，因为我觉得好难单打独斗。你有好难自己成一个公司。 嗯。 就是我觉得他是一个机制问题。

Can he speak Cantonese? He's been out for ten years. Tonight, when I look back at that translation. I'm totally confused. Ask him what he's talking about. Mm. Pretty good. But I think, as things stand right now, a small group is really necessary, because I think it's really hard to do it alone. It's also really hard to build your own company. Mm. I think it's a mechanism issue.

但我觉得成为小组，其实我我觉得没有那么那么怎么说呢，我觉得那么在意摆布法，有没有100%的match。 就是因为有时候我相对来讲，在小组的状态下，我会特别的自私。 就是特别自我的一种状态。 这很好。 现在的小组都还在自私。

But I think being part of a small group, honestly, I don't think it's so, so—how should I put it— that it's so focused on how to maneuver things, whether it matches 100%. It's just that sometimes, relatively speaking, when I'm in a small group, I'm especially selfish. It's a very selfcentered state. That's very good. Even today, small groups are still selfish.

你会想要在角色中。 那那你这个为什么。 你这个其实这种竞争关系。 就是我觉得小组的魅力在于，就是你跟一堆同等水平的人相互竞争，然后这个小组他才会变得越来越强。但如果你很peace。 哎呀，就是怎么说。

You want to be in the role. Then why is that for you? This kind of competition, actually... I think the charm of a small group is that you compete with a bunch of people on the same level, and that's how the group becomes stronger and stronger. But if you're very peaceful. Oh—how should I put it.

你对，一个是要照顾别人情绪啦，还有一个就是呃，大家都在摆烂的时候，或者我接受这个小组就完了，就会会散掉。 嗯。 我的感觉是这样。 就是一定是要那种。 所以我觉得他是人的问题。 嗯。 就是你你要找一个怎么样的小组。

Right, you know, one is to take care of other people's emotions, and the other is, uh, when everyone is just putting up a fence, or when I accept this group and that's it, it just falls apart. Mm. That's how I feel. It definitely has to be that kind of... So I think it's a human issue. Mm. I mean, you have to find what kind of group.

就是你。 就是如果你是一个喜欢摆烂，那你找的小组可能是跟你一样的，那你们可以接受这个。 很长进步的一个工作方式。 那如果你是一个本身我喜欢做做做东西很快的，那我觉得你需要找到你才能去成为一个小组。 嗯，就是成为。

I mean, you. If you're someone who likes to push things to the limit, then the group you find might be like yours, and you can accept that. It's a way of working that progresses a lot. But if you're someone who likes doing things fast, then I think you need to find your own way to become a group. Mm, to become...

那那他的那他的信任值就会很高。 嗯。 没问题。 因为我们俩就是说，他不是说他们那个UBERMORGEN就彼此之间不用互相沟通，就可以单独输出东西。我觉得这个还挺让我震惊。 嗯。 就他们那个小组，对，就是这种信任度，

Then his trust level will be very high. Mm. No problem. Because the two of us, I mean, it's not like at UBERMORGEN you don't need to communicate with each other, and you can just deliver things separately. I think that really shocked me. Mm. That group of theirs, yeah, that level of trust,

我觉得我以前可能是没有想想象过这种情况。 我。 我就会发很多时间，假如说我们是一个组，就必要一定要沟通，然后大家可能你不同意，但是可能少数服从多数，达到一个一致的意见。但从来没有想过可以。 我一般发现这种挺照顾别人情绪的时候，

I think I probably never imagined something like that before. I... I would spend a lot of time, if we were a group, we absolutely have to communicate, and you might disagree, but you might submit to the majority, and reach a consensus on the same viewpoint. But I never thought it was possible. I usually find that when you really care for others' emotions,

就明显发现你如果说一些事，做一些事，对方会破防，就是对方能力有限的时候才会这样。 哈哈哈。 我在翻那些。 没什么能力。 就是我觉得在小组里你发现需要照顾别人的时候，那明显就是对方能力有一点缺乏。 我觉得不是很能跟你单独频道的时候。

you clearly notice that if you say something, or do something, the other person will lose their temper, that's only when their abilities are limited. Hahaha. I'm looking through those. Not much ability. I mean, in a group, when you find you need to look after others, it's obvious that the other person's abilities are a bit lacking. I think it's not like they can really work in a separate channel with you.

嗯。 性格。 对对，就是不是不是说谁对谁错谁高谁低。 这种是就是我觉得就是。 频道能搭配。 对对对。 所以。 我照顾你的情绪，会把我想法自上而下。 那应该不会。 就是小组就是要把。 那我们能不能搞一个那种隔离，

Mm. Personality. Right, right—it's not like who's right or wrong, who's higher or lower. That's the kind of thing I think it is. Channels can match up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So... If I look after your emotions, my thoughts will come down from above. That probably won't happen. It's just that the group has to... So can we set up a kind of separation,

但是你一群人在一块互相认同。 哈哈哈，可以。就是搞就是市场的角度。 就是我觉得很有意思的是搞一个所有人都不吃压力的小组，就是像他刚刚说的那个社会对于男性的一个要求一样，所有人都很呃，超级勇敢的那种，超级底气超足，

where you're all together and you recognize each other. Hahaha, sure. We can do it from the market's perspective. What I find interesting is setting up a group where nobody takes pressure, like the society's demands for men, as he just said, where everyone is, uh, super brave, with tons of confidence,

就是自我非常稳定，那就很棒。 对，这个这个其实这个想法挺好，但是就是要看他性格，如果其中有一个人破防的话，那就很惨。 然后大家就。 就会更坚强。

and very selfestablished, that would be great. Yeah, this idea is actually pretty good, but it depends on his personality, if one of them loses their temper, that would be really bad. And then everyone would just... become stronger.

嗯。 嗯。

Mm. Mm.

哈哈哈。 大家都会。

Hahaha. Everyone would. Do you want some more time to talk about again or?

你还想再聊一会儿吗，还是？ 嗯。 要不要再还要再离开一会？

Mm. Do you want to leave a bit longer?

就是问一下，就是我我也听说过，就是你们的创作小组之间那种互相默契的状态，就是让我感到非常的震撼，就是你们是怎么去处理这种小组之间的那些关系的，能达到那种大家不用通过沟通，但是能互相肯定的那种那种状态。

Just to ask, I've heard it too, that your creative group has this mutual understanding, which really shocked me, how you handle relationships within such groups, so you can achieve that everyone doesn't have to communicate, but can still validate each other.

这个过程是不是曾经建立在无数次的沟通磨合中去完成的？

Wasn't this process built over countless communication and coordination sessions?

对啊。

Yeah. This is a very central question, I think. I think every team has to evolve in its own way. To find its own rhythm, its own baseline. Way of working.

我觉得这是个非常核心的问题。 我认为每个团队都必须不断进化， 用自己的方式。 为了找到自己的节奏， 找到自己的基线。 工作方式。

We have been a couple Liz and I, so the my partner and like the primary partner and I, we were a love partner couple.

我们Liz和我一直是个搭档， 也就是我和我的主要搭档， 我们是"恋爱搭档"。

And we were both highly. Weird people in the sense of not very good with communication. And communicating with each other. Very, very many, many misunderstandings.

而且我们俩都非常...... 算是很怪的人，就是沟通不太好。 彼此沟通也不太顺。 有非常非常多的误会。

So that's why we stopped talking about the artistic stuff itself. Because it was just not possible to ever release anything.

所以我们才不再谈艺术相关的东西。 因为根本没法把任何东西放出来。

So what then happened is— We saw that, and this is very particular just to us, we saw that we have an urge to talk about everything and anything. Together. Because we love each other, we like each other. We respect each other. Liz is a very smart woman. I'm smart in my own way. And we have a lot to say,

所以后来发生的是—— 我们看到， 而且这对我们来说很特别， 我们发现自己有一种冲动， 想把什么都聊出来。 一起。 因为我们彼此相爱， 我们也喜欢彼此。 我们尊重彼此。 Liz是个很聪明的女人。 我也有我自己的聪明。 而且我们有很多话要说，

and a lot of things that we think about. So we started to share that with each other and to discuss. Politics. Social things. Not art. Not really art. More children then. When we had kids, we talked a lot about family and about how to raise the children. Gossip. I think I already mentioned that. Gossip is very important.

也有很多事情要想。 所以我们开始把这些分享出来， 彼此交流、讨论。 政治。 社会方面的事。 不是艺术。 也不完全是艺术。 更多是关于孩子。 我们有孩子的时候， 经常聊家庭，还有怎么养育孩子。 八卦。 我想我已经提过了。 八卦非常重要。

Because through gossip, you identify your own value system in terms of social behavior.

因为通过八卦， 你会在社会行为上识别自己的价值体系。

And this kind of exchange I call it the baseline. And this is where the trust resides in this layer. Where you know what the other person feels and thinks. And when you can trust the other person, then you can let them do whatever they want. And they let you do whatever you want. Yeah. Does that answer a little bit?

我把这种交流称为"基线"。 而信任就存在于这里， 在这一层面上。 你知道对方是什么感受， 以及他们在想什么。 当你能信任对方时， 你就能让他们想做什么就做什么。 他们也会让你想做什么就做什么。 对。 这样能回答一点吗？

You can follow up with a question. If that wasn't answering. What do you wanted to know?

你可以再追问一个问题。 如果那还不算回答。 你想知道什么？

Yeah.

对。

How do you work without do you work with other people?

你如何工作，而不...... 你和其他人一起工作吗？ 我之前也跟小组之间做过一些工作吧，但是我性格上是不是很害怕冲突的那种。所以有时候会注意到别人的想法的时候，就可能会会上去表达自己这样子。所以有时候会想是不是说这关系中就是非死即比那种的。就是我也注意别人就会说上司到自己。

I've done some work with the group before, but I'm not really the type who's afraid of conflict. So sometimes, when I notice other people's thoughts, I might go ahead and express myself. So sometimes I wonder whether this relationship is a matter of life or death. I also notice others talking from their bosses to me.

如果说在团队里面，你又在乎自己表达自己的感受的时候，又很容易会导致跟彼此关系中出现一些问题这样。

If, within a team, you care about expressing your feelings, it can easily lead to issues in your relationships. Yes. You seem to me as a person who could be very direct. Because you have your opinion. Like not opinion, but yeah, you want to say what you think, you know. Because that's a good thing. To be direct. It's the it's easy. No. Yeah. See, that way I say it that way. You know. And if it's a conflict, then it's a conflict.

是的。 在我看来，你像是那种人， 可以非常直接。 因为你有自己的观点。 不是完全是观点，但对， 你想说出你的想法，你懂的。 因为那是件好事。 直接一点。 这很容易。 不。 对。 你看，我就是这么说的。 你懂的。 如果是冲突， 那就是冲突。

There's a lot of people that don't like that. And that makes it difficult for people who who do that.

有很多人不喜欢这样。 这就让人很难 对那样做的人来说。

So I found. A partner who's even more direct than I am. And he she loves conflict. She she lives in she thrives in conflict. And I don't like conflict because I'm I'm not so selfconfident. I'm not so stable.

所以我发现。 有个搭档比我还要直接。 而且他、她很爱冲突。 她生活在冲突里，也在冲突中成长。 而我不喜欢冲突， 因为我不太自信。 我也不太稳定。

But I want to I also want to be direct. When I see something, I want to say it. Because why not? It should be possible. So I think it's important if you're like that, it's important to find people who are also direct. But maybe not only. Because otherwise it's like a it's like a

但我也想直接一点。 当我看到某件事时， 我想把它说出来。 因为为什么不呢？ 这应该是可能的。 所以我觉得很重要的是， 如果你是那样的人， 重要的是要找到一些人， 他们也同样直接。 但也许不只是这样。 因为不然就会变成一种、就是那种，

group of super explosive um. Kind of not kind of it's like a group of people who are all willing to have conflict and direct confrontation. It also sometimes needs people

一群特别爆炸性的，呃。 算是那种，不算是，而是像一群 所有人都愿意 去冲突、去直接对峙的人。 而且有时也需要一些人

in a group who are um. Doing the social work around it. And who are trying to to moderate between people who are fighting. And the fights are very productive. But because we are also social beings, and not only, for example, rational or emotional, you need people who moderate it. But yeah, for you, I would say

在一个群体里，呃。 在周围做社工。 并且努力在两者之间做调节， 在那些在争吵的人之间。 而这些争吵非常有成果。 但因为我们也是社会性的存在， 而且不只是，比如说，理性的， 或情绪化的，你需要一些人 来把它调节、调节一下。 不过对你来说，我会说

maybe find one person, you know. Or not. Or like two people. One that is a little bit more moderator and one that is very conflicty. That can bring you to a very good level of of productivity. You know. In terms of thinking, working, and also being. Because for me, the for me, art and life has never been then separated.

也许找一个人，你懂的。 或者也不一定。 或者两个人。 其中一个更像是调节者一点的， 另一个非常爱冲突的。 这样就能把你带到一个很好的水平， 也就是高效率。 你懂的。 无论是思考、工作，还是做人。 因为对我来说，对我而言， 艺术和生活从来没有被分开过。

It's always been everything I wanted to do in my life. Everything I was interested in. I just used it in in my art. Because why should I have a hobby? You know. If I want to if I want to climb a mountain, I use it for my art. If I if I want to do a sport, I why not use it for my art? Everything. You know.

我一直都想做的事情， 在我的人生里。 所有我感兴趣的事情。 我都把它用在我的艺术里。 因为我为什么要有爱好？ 你懂的。 如果我想，如果我想爬山， 我就把它用在我的艺术上。 如果我想做一项运动， 那我为什么不把它用在我的艺术上呢？ 所有的一切。 你懂的。

My relationship became part of the art and now the kids are also part of the team. It's it's a beautiful thing. But not all people like that. Some people really also like to separate. Like that that the art is their their job and then they have a private life. And that's fine too. Absolutely.

我的人际关系成了艺术的一部分， 现在孩子们也成了团队的一员。 这真的是一件很美好的事。 但不是所有人都喜欢那样。 有些人其实也很喜欢分开。 比如说，艺术是他们的工作， 然后他们还有私人生活。 这也没问题。 当然。

I understand. Yeah. Go on.

我明白。 嗯。 继续。 You 当你们一起合作，一起去做一件作品的时候，你们是单独负责其中一个部分，

When you work together and create a piece together, are you responsible for one part separately,

还是说你们还是有相互去给对方提意见的时候，那比如说如果你们是单独负责一个部分，那。

or do you still give each other feedback, so for example, if you're responsible for one part alone, then...

你们要怎么样去。 向外人解释这个部分呢？

How do you do it? How do you explain this part to outsiders? I think it changed a lot over time. Because we we changed as human beings.

我觉得这在时间上变化很大。 因为我们作为人类也发生了变化。

We become, for example, very experienced with certain things. But we can stay very stupid on certain levels. And you never learn. It's very weird. I mean, me and Liz, we still have the same conflict. It's ridiculous. In terms of what you asked,

比如说，我们在某些事情上变得很有经验。 但在某些层面上，我们也可能还是很愚蠢。 而且你永远学不会。 这很奇怪。 我的意思是，我和Liz到现在还是有同样的冲突。 太荒唐了。 就你刚才问的而言，

I think it really depends. Sure. I mean, usually I don't do visuals. I don't do the visualizations. That's all Liz. I don't do really the putting things into a space. Liz is so strong with that. I mean, she's a incredibly good at because she's also a painter. She knows how to look and painting is not using your hand

我觉得这真的很取决于情况。 当然。 我的意思是，通常我不做视觉素材。 我也不做可视化。 这些都是Liz的。 我基本不会把东西放进一个空间里。 Liz在这方面特别强。 我的意思是，她非常擅长这个，因为她也是画家。 她很懂得怎么看，画画并不是用手

to put oil or acrylic on a canvas. Painting is looking.

把油画或丙烯画在画布上。 绘画就是观察。

And then transfer. What you see into something on the canvas. That then it becomes interesting. And she's really good at that. Very, very good. So I I don't often do that. Sometimes I do it too.

然后再把作品转移过去。 把你看到的东西转成画布上的东西。 这样它就变得有意思了。 而且她在这方面真的很厉害。 非常非常厉害。 所以我不太常那样做。 有时候我也会这么做。

What I do is more writing. Conceptual stuff. So I I well, we both do is we bring in topics. But often Liz is the one who says, "I really want to work now with this concrete thing. You know. With this topic. And I'm more of someone who's everywhere and interested and looking at that and looking at that and doing some research here.

我做的更多是写作。 一些概念性的东西。 所以我，我，嗯，我们俩都会做的是 我们会引入一些主题。 但很多时候是Liz会说， "我现在真的想做这个具体的东西。 你知道的。 就这个主题。 而我更像是那种到处都在的人， 很感兴趣，一直在看那个， 看那个，然后在这边做些研究。

" Liz is also much more of like a decision maker. I'm more of a opening up things. That's why I'm here in China. She has never been to China. Because she's not she'd rather stay home. And and do her stuff. So there are tendencies of like a separation of work. In terms of feedback, yeah, we do give feedback.

Liz也更像是个做决定的人。 我更倾向于把事情打开、敞开。 所以我才在中国这里。 她从来没去过中国。 因为她不是那种，她更愿意待在家里。 然后做她自己的事。 所以确实会有一些偏向于分开工作的倾向。 至于反馈，是的，我们确实会给反馈。

Obviously. But the feedback is less of a, "Hey, I like " It's more like, "I like that or it's great or something." But that's not really feedback. That's just like, like a positive acknowledgement of, "Okay, you did something great.

当然。 但这种反馈不太像是， "嘿，我喜欢——" 更像是"我喜欢那个，或者它很棒之类的。" 但那其实不算真正的反馈。 那只是对你的回应的一种积极认可， 比如说："好，你做了一件很棒的事。

" It's more feedback can more mean. No, I don't know. It's really difficult to say. I think it changes all the time. And it's really difficult for the projects because we do we do projects on so many different levels. So many different media. We also also we always when there is a new technology we just use it.

这种反馈更多可能意味着。 不，我也不知道。 这真的很难说。 我觉得它一直在变化。 而且对项目来说也很难， 因为我们做的项目有太多不同层级。 媒体也很多种。 而且我们也总是，每当出现新技术时， 就直接用它。

So at the moment the the the whole visual textual LLM

所以目前整个视觉文本 LLM，

visual AI sound AIs integrated. Pipelines now. I mean, we're doing architecture. We're doing AI architecture now because that just working with an LLM is is kind of stupid. Yeah.

以及视觉 AI、声音 AI 都已经集成了。 现在也有相应的流水线。 我的意思是，我们在做架构。 我们现在在做 AI 架构， 因为光是和一个 LLM 一起工作，感觉有点傻。 对。

And and now we have also Billie and Lola who are also contributing.

而且现在我们还有 Billie 和 Lola， 她们也在做贡献。

And also working conceptually with. It's hard to answer this question actually.

也在做相关的概念性工作。 其实这个问题很难回答。

Okay, time.

好，时间到了。 就是我觉得可能你们之间的合作更像是不同部分的。 你们之间分工更像是比如说你提出一个概念然后他去执行。 那其实你们之间的冲突不是说概念与概念之间的冲突。 因为只有当观念不一样的时候人们才会打架打在一起。

I think your collaboration between you two is more like different parts. Your division of responsibility is more like, for example, you propose an idea, and then he goes and executes it. But the conflict between you isn't really between ideas and ideas. Because only when the ideas are different, do people end up fighting and getting involved.

所以我觉得这样的合作才更平和。

So I think this kind of collaboration is more harmonious. Yeah. I mean I mean one thing about ideas is for me ideas are like currency. I think I said that in the beginning of the workshop. It's like one idea is like one yen. And it's completely interchangeable. It's fungible. If you have like you know NFTs are nonfungible tokens. And currency like the renminbi is a fungible token.

对。 我的意思是，关于想法有一点是， 对我来说，想法就像货币。 我想我在工作坊一开始就说过。 就像一个想法就像一元。 而且它是完全可以互换的。 它是可替换的。 比如说，你知道，NFT 是不可替换的 token。 而货币，比如人民币，就是一个可替换的 token。

Every you can change every every yen you can change for another one. It doesn't matter. It's just it's the same. And when I saw the NFT market in the beginning I I also thought come on it's practically all the same shit. It's not it's it's really not nonfungible. It's really fungible. Actually. And then and that's why Damien Hirst

每一元你都可以换， 都可以换成另一种货币。 这无所谓。 就是它一样。 而且我一开始看到 NFT 市场的时候， 我也想，哎呀， 这基本上都是一样的破事。 它不是，真的不是不可替换的。 它其实是可替换的。 其实。 所以这就是为什么 Damien Hirst

is a really really good artist not his his work is really bad. Really bad. But it's like the smooth exhibition. That's also really bad. But it's what behind it. He was one of the first artists. He was the first artist and he's one of the biggest. Who understood that the difference between nonfungible

是一位非常非常优秀的艺术家， 而不是因为他的作品很差。 很差。 但它就像一场顺畅的展览。 那也同样很差。 但这就是背后的东西。 他是最早的一批艺术家之一。 他是第一位艺术家，而且是最伟大的之一。 谁明白了不可替换和

and fungible is actually not there in this kind of digital space. And he issued a currency where he put these kind of I think it was just dot paintings. Little dot paintings. And they were like a tiny little different. So basically like a serial number. You know like instead of a two it's a one somewhere

可替换的区别，其实在这种数字空间里并不存在。 他发行了一种货币，把这类东西放进去， 我记得就是点状画。 小小的点状画。 而且它们就那么一点点不一样。 所以基本上就像一个序列号。 你知道，比如不是 2，就是 1，在某个地方，

on the painting. That's just visual. And you could get the print and you could get the the digital token. And then at a certain point you would have to decide do I keep the print or do I keep the token. And one of them would be burned. Either the token or the token you can also burn them. You know you destroy them digitally.

在画面上。 那只是视觉上的。 你可以拿到印刷品，也可以拿到数字 token。 然后到某个阶段，你就得决定 我要保留印刷品，还是保留 token。 其中一个会被烧掉。 要么是 token，或者 token 也可以被烧掉。 你知道，你把它们在数字层面销毁。

Or you burn them literally. He made a big fire and then they were destroyed. Genius. Really. He understood exactly what this business is about. And he's very very smart there.

或者你就直接把它们烧掉。 他点了一场大火，然后它们就被毁了。 天才。 真的。 他非常清楚这个生意到底是什么。 而且他在这方面非常非常聪明。

What I want to say is ideas are like currency. They're they're worth something but they're not important. Because you can just exchange them. So for me working artistically is not about the ideas.

我想说的是，想法就像货币。 它们有价值，但并不重要。 因为你可以直接把它们交换掉。 所以对我来说，艺术工作不是围绕想法。

But it's about. That what we did with the smooth exhibition is about the research and about the conceptual stuff and about these kind of evolving the evolving structures that then become kind of logical. And then you start to make something. And this making is not about ideas as well. There are always ideas everywhere.

而是关于...... 我们在顺畅展览上做的事情， 是关于研究，也关于概念性的东西， 以及这些不断演变的结构， 然后它们就变得有一定逻辑。 然后你就开始做出一些东西。 而这种"做出来"也不一定只是想法。 到处都有想法。

It's like the artistic currency. You have thousands of like this is also an idea to do it in this color. You know in this font. It's always an idea basically. But it's not it's not important. It can become your style if you have a certain you know. But you're right. I mean that's why we don't clash on ideas.

这就像艺术货币。 你有成千上万这种东西，比如这也是一个想法， 可以用这种颜色来做。 你知道，用这个字体。 基本上它永远都是一个想法。 但它并不重要。 如果你有某种......你知道的，它就可能变成你的风格。 但你说得对。 我的意思是，这就是我们不会在想法上发生冲突的原因。

Because we are very affirmative. It's like yeah you have a better idea basically or better aesthetics or this is like you want to do it in green. Okay let's do it in green. I I don't this is not important for me. Because it's about something else. And if you want to do it in a totally different direction

因为我们非常主张。 就像，嗯，你有一个更好的想法，基本上， 或者更好的美学，或者你想把它做成 绿色。 好，那就用绿色来做。 我......这对我来说不重要。 因为这关乎的是别的东西。 如果你想把它朝着完全不同的方向做，

. Yeah sometimes it hurts. Yeah yeah sometimes you want to do something and it's just not possible because the other person just doesn't want to do it. And then I really want to do the server installation. You know like really a big museum show only with these things that we're hanging in the smooth show.

是的，有时候会很痛。 是的，是的，有时候你想做点什么， 但就是做不到，因为对方 就是不想做。 然后我真的想做服务器， 安装。 你知道，就像一场很大的博物馆展览， 只用我们挂在这里的这些东西， 在顺畅展览里。

And just these like huge and it's just it's a stupid idea. It's just very male thing again. But I want to do it. And Liz obviously doesn't want to do it. Otherwise we would have done it. So this is kind of we don't even talk about it. It's like an underlying kind of a little conflict. But it's okay.

而这些东西就特别大，而且这真的是个蠢主意。 这又是很"男人味"的东西。 但我想做。 而Liz显然不想做。 不然我们就会做了。 所以这种事我们甚至都不怎么谈。 这就像是个潜在的小冲突。 但没关系。

You know yeah.

你知道，嗯。

Let me see.

让我看看。

For you. Sure.

给你。 当然。 你们除了会一起做作品之外，还会自己单独做吗？ 就是不会一起做自己私下单独在做作品。

Besides being able to create works together, do you also do them on your own? So you don't do them together privately, doing them alone. Because we don't really cooperate when we work. It's kind of feels like I'm doing it on my own sometimes. So I'm just doing something I like. I do a lot of like here for example you can see it's not open now. I publish at the moment a lot of text. Like manifestos. I mean I think Liz doesn't even know

因为我们其实不太合作， 在工作的时候。 感觉就像我是在自己的频道上做， 有时候。 所以我就做我喜欢的东西。 我做很多这种，比如说在这里， 你可以看到现在还没打开。 我目前发布了很多文字内容。 比如宣言。 我的意思是，我觉得Liz甚至都不知道，

and Billie and Lola they don't know that I published that. I put it on the website. And it's also not a lot of people reading it. But for me it's important. So yeah I do that on my own but I would never publish. I always publish it on the UBERMORGEN. And the same for example we do with media. So Liz just did an interview yesterday.

Billie和Lola也不知道， 我发布了那个。 我把它放到网站上了。 而且也没有很多人在读。 但对我来说这很重要。 所以是的，我自己也会做， 但我从不会发布。 我总是在UBERMORGEN上发布。 同样地，比如我们做媒体也是这样。 所以Liz昨天刚做了一次采访。

Yesterday with some what do I know and. And yesterday she told in the evening we had a call just a private call and she told me. Yeah we did this and that and that happened and it was funny or stupid or something like that. I never wanted to work on my own because when I was 12 13 I started to to try do artistic stuff.

昨天和一些，我也说不清的， 然后。 昨天晚上她说， 我们有个电话，就是私下的电话， 她跟我说。 对，我们做了这个、那个，然后发生了那些事， 而且有点好笑，或者很蠢之类的。 我从来不想自己做， 因为我12岁、13岁的时候， 我就开始尝试做艺术类的东西。

So photography, sculpture. I did a lot with metal like metal work. And it was so I mean I was already a little bit trained in looking at art so I I I knew this is so generic. It's so standard. It's so uninteresting what I'm doing here. That I quickly understood probably not a good idea to to do a classic medium on my own

比如摄影、雕塑。 我做过很多金属相关的作品。 而且就是，我的意思是我当时已经 稍微学会了怎么看艺术， 所以我知道这太泛了。 太标准了。 我在这里做的事情也特别没意思。 所以我很快就明白，可能这并不是个好主意， 把经典媒介独立做出来，

is not a it's not satisfying. It's not a method for success. And I'm a very ambitious person. I want I need to be successful in what I do. Otherwise it doesn't I mean it doesn't really make sense. I do it for myself. That's the primary motivation. But then it also has to communicate because I believe that art that's also your responsibility

并不令人满意。 这也不是成功的方法。 而且我是个很有野心的人。 我想要——我需要在我做的事情上成功。 不然就不行了，我的意思是，这其实很不合理。 我是为自己做的。 这是我的主要动机。 但同时它也必须沟通， 因为我相信艺术也是你的责任，

as an artist but it's also as a human being you you want you want to communicate with your work. There are a few artists they don't care about that. They really they're you know these artists where they open an old garage and they because the the guy dies or the woman dies and they find the whole a whole body of work

作为艺术家，但也作为一个人， 你也想和你的作品沟通。 有一些艺术家不在乎这些。 他们真的——你知道，就是那种艺术家， 他们开了一间旧车库，因为那个人去世了， 或者那个女人去世了，他们就找到一大堆作品，

of like 60 years and it was never published and it's genius or with writers that happen sometimes. But usually artists publish and they want to do the work to be seen.

大概60年的作品，却从来没出版过， 这很天才，或者有时候会遇到那种作家。 但通常艺术家会发表，他们想把作品做出来， 让人看见。

No solo work is never and it's it's as I said it's it's built into the collective that we can actually kind of work solo. We just publish it then on a on the label.

独立作品从来不会——而且就像我说的， 它是融入了集体之中， 所以我们其实也可以算是独立工作。 我们就直接在唱片公司上发表。

How do you like to do that? Do you like to do you work on your own or is this important for you that it's like your work and that you do it and that you can decide everything or or is this not so important?

你喜欢怎么做？ 你喜欢自己做吗， 还是说对你来说重要的是，这就是你的作品， 你来做，而且你能决定一切， 还是说这没那么重要？ 我会比较喜欢自己做。然后自己决定。因为如果我和别人做小组的话我会觉得有一些焦虑。因为就是我会更想坚持我的想法。然后需要跟他沟通的话我会要考虑到他。因为我也是那种非常会去在乎别人情绪的。所以我觉得我还是更适合自己一个人做。

I prefer doing it myself, and then deciding for myself. Because if I work in a small group with someone else, I feel a bit anxious. Because I just want to stick with my ideas. And if I need to communicate with him, I'll take him into account. Because I'm also the type who really cares about other people's feelings. So I feel I'm still better suited to doing it alone. Yeah I understand. Yeah.

嗯，我明白。嗯。

I understand your argument.

我理解你的观点。

And it's very like um. It's very nice because you don't want to hurt other people. And you don't want to be uh like compete and then maybe your idea goes over the idea of someone else and then you feel bad because you know how that feels. That's very nice of you. Thank you. But maybe you'll find a way

而且这很......嗯。 这很好，因为你不想伤害别人。 你也不想去，呃，比赛竞争， 然后可能你的想法压过别人的想法， 然后你就会觉得难受， 因为你知道那种感觉是什么样的。 你这样很好。 谢谢。 但也许你会找到一种办法，

through. The trust that I mean where you can trust that the other person will be open and tell you you know like being vulnerable together being so open that you know and you can trust that the other person will tell you that they are now hurt and that you then can react and say okay okay okay then let me let me take that back

通过...... 我说的那种信任， 让你能相信对方， 会坦诚地告诉你， 你知道，就像一起坦诚相处， 坦诚到你会知道， 你也能相信对方， 会告诉你他现在受伤了， 然后你就能做出反应， 然后说"好，好，好"， 那我就把这个话收回去，

you know and let me think of maybe a way where we can bring both ideas together and then we are both happy and both not hurt you know or something like that.

你知道，让我想一想， 也许有个办法，我们可以把...... 把两种想法合在一起， 然后我们俩都开心， 而且都不受伤，你知道， 或者类似的东西。

I had a situation in the exhibition you know there was echo con lure show and our show and box art is not a media museum so they didn't have. A very good beamer. They only had two really good beamers and one that was okay. And the two beamers were given to us and the one was standing there and echo came later to install

我在展览上遇到过一种情况， 你知道，当时有个"echo con lure"展览， 还有我们的展览， 而且 box art 不是媒体博物馆， 所以他们没有...... 一个很好的投影仪。 他们只有两台特别好的投影仪， 其中一台还算可以。 那两台投影仪就给了我们， 其中一台就放在那里， 之后 echo 才来安装，

and I. Knew that's going to be an issue. That's going to be trouble now. But echo is a dear friend of mine. She used to be a student. Now she's a good friend. I respect her as an artist. She respects us as artists. We like each other. We respect each other. So I was there but I was in production mode.

然后我...... 我就知道这会是个问题。 这下就会出大问题了。 但 echo 是我很亲近的朋友。 她以前是学生。 现在她是好朋友。 我尊重她作为艺术家。 她也尊重我们这些艺术家。 我们彼此喜欢。 我们彼此尊重。 所以我当时在那里，但我处在制作模式里。

So I was like I'm not giving these fucking beamers away. These are the beamers that we need because it's the vision that we do the installation like that. It has to be like that. And I fight for it in the evening. And then I go back to the hotel room and I think about it. And I think hm is it more important

所以我就想，我不会把这些他妈的投影仪送出去。 这些投影仪就是我们需要的， 因为我们的设想就是这样来做装置的。 它必须就是那样。 晚上我为此拼命。 然后我回到酒店房间， 再想一想。 我就想，嗯，这更重要吗，

that it looks a little bit better or. Show or. Is it more important my friendship with echo and I said no the friendship is much more important I cannot have total shit beamers that's also not okay but she would also not allow that she would not accept that either so I sent her a long message say echo I I said I'm sorry

让它看起来稍微好一点， 还是...... 展览，还是...... 我和 echo 的友谊更重要， 我说不，友谊要重要得多， 我不能有那种彻底烂透的投影仪， 那也不行， 但她也不会允许那样， 她也不会接受那种情况， 所以我给她发了一条很长的消息， 说"echo"，我说对不起，

I was a little bit hard because I saw that there is a problem and I'm in production mode but you are my friend and it's more important for me that our friendship than some kind of shit art so if you need the beamers you can have them and we'll we'll see that the museum organizes two beamers that maybe are not that good

我刚才有点硬， 因为我看到有个问题， 而且我在制作模式里， 但你是我的朋友， 对我来说更重要的是， 我们的友谊，比起某种烂艺术， 所以如果你需要那些投影仪， 你可以拿走， 我们会看看博物馆会不会安排， 两台可能不太好的投影仪，

but good enough so we can do our installation. And that's exactly how it happened. They came with two not so good beamers but it's okay for our installation as you saw it works kind of and she has the better beamers and her installation works as well it's also good and we're both now happy. Yeah. Just as an example.

但足够好，让我们能做装置。 事情就是这样发生的。 他们带来了两台不太好的投影仪， 但对我们的装置来说没问题， 你也看到了，它还能用， 而她有更好的投影仪， 她的装置也同样能用， 这也很好，我们现在都很开心。 嗯。 只是举个例子。

It's not about ideas here. But is is a similar thing. You know.

这里不是在讲什么想法。 但这也是类似的事情。 你知道的。 如果这种情况在我这的话呢 我也是就是虽然说我是单独一个人做作品 我会更倾向于这种形式 但是如果是很好的朋友 我比较欣赏他的作品 的话呢 我也会去就是说比如说就像两个头呃投影仪这种事情 虽然说。 也会很想。

If this situation were the case with me, I would also—even though I'm working on my own, I'd lean more toward this format. But if it's a really good friend, I appreciate his work more. Then I'd also go—for example, like with two heads—uh, projectors and that kind of thing. Even though... I'd really want to.

然后他也会很需要那么我会去帮助他 我会跟他一起去想办法 或者说去哪个地方去借一个更好的投影仪 然后让我们一起用到好的投影仪 就是我可能会是这样子想的

And he'd really need it, so I'd help him. I'd think of ways together with him, or go somewhere to borrow a better projector, and then we'd use a good projector together. That's probably how I'd think. Yeah. Exactly. That would be the if if this were in the um I don't know national national uh museum of uh contemporary art in Beijing or in the MoMA in New York I would um I would I would talk with echo I would sit down with echo and say we need to we we need to unify and we need to make the museum clear

嗯。 没错。 那就是如果这个在......呃， 我不知道，在北京的国家博物馆， 或者纽约的 MoMA， 我会，呃，我会跟 echo 谈。 我会坐下来跟 echo 说， 我们需要——我们需要统一起来， 而且我们得让博物馆明确说明，

that we need these beamers because it has to be 100% good for both of us This is inacceptable that it's not good There is no compromise But here in the box art it's okay to do a compromise because I know the audience I know it's okay I know our work is for me is so good that it can be reduced a little bit in quality

我们需要这些投影仪， 因为它必须是 100% 好的， 对我们两个人都要好。 不好这件事是不可接受的。 没有妥协。 但在这里的箱式艺术里， 做妥协是可以的。 因为我了解观众， 我知道这样没问题。 我知道我们的作品对我来说非常好， 质量可以稍微降低一点，

because we had to make so many compromises in quality you know and uh I know also that the only thing that is important in the end are the pictures of the exhibition and with Photoshop and now with AI I didn't even myself you can correct all these images I already did it for the web did you see that by the way

因为我们不得不做很多妥协， 在质量上，你知道的。 而且我也知道，唯一的问题是， 最终重要的， 是展览的照片。 而且用了 Photoshop，现在又用 AI， 我自己都没做过， 你可以把这些图片都修正过来。 我已经为网站做过了， 顺便你看过吗？

did someone look at the website and that the image of the website and that the images from the and at how it is in reality did you see the difference

有人看过网站吗？ 网站上的那张图， 还有那些图片的样子、怎么样， 在现实中你看出区别了吗？

in the screen room I took out all these shitty power things

在投影室里。 我把这些烂电源的东西都拿掉了，

you know all the. It's actually hilarious because because I'm I'm I'm there I'm a professional there have enough experience that I know hey the people are going to look at it they're not going to care you know even the curators they're not going to care there if they're smart they know the limitations and compromises

你知道的，全部都...... 其实这很搞笑， 因为因为我——我——我在那里， 我是个专业人士。 我有足够的经验， 我知道，人们会看这个， 他们不会在乎。 你知道，连策展人也是， 他们也不会在乎。 如果他们聪明， 他们就知道你的局限和妥协，

that you have to do in in a museum like that and in another museum like that that's fine and um their general audience they will never see it and for the international audience they will never see the show so I'll just manipulate the picture you know so that's fine.

你必须做到什么。 在那样的博物馆里， 以及在另一家那样的博物馆里， 这没问题。 而且，呃，他们的普通观众， 他们永远看不到这些， 而对国际观众来说， 他们永远看不到这个展览。 所以我就会把图片改一改， 你知道的，所以这也没问题。

It's the. This is it's very hilarious actually it's fucking funny.

就是这样。 这个其实真的很搞笑。 简直笑死人了。

So if you look at the.

所以如果你看一下这个。

Quickly go to the exhibition here. It's actually so here I took out the power line and I I corrected this a little bit and then here that's the most important one here all the power is gone see it's all there's no cables and if you. Look at the real images there's always everywhere it's dirty cables

快速看一下这里的展览。 其实在这里我把电线拔掉了。 然后我稍微修正了一下。 然后这里就是最重要的那个。 这里所有的电都没了。 你看，全都没了，没有电缆了。 然后如果你...... 看看真实的图片。 到处都是脏电缆。

and fucking. Social so. Just as an example.

真他妈的。 所以...... 只是举个例子。

But again this is a very good example

但再说一次，这是个很好的例子。

I mean you you you you choose the you choose the kind of more. Kind of retracting way of dealing with the situation and I what I formulated would be kind of an affirmative way to say hey let's say yes to this difficulty of the competing ideas and of the of the kind of the potential of hurting each other

我的意思是，你选择的那种......你选择的那种更...... 更能收敛、更能回避地处理这个情况。 而我提出的说法是： 用一种比较肯定的方式来表达： 嘿，我们就接受这种困难吧。 这些对立的想法，以及那种...... 彼此伤害的可能性。

and use that as a chance for innovation of how to work together because you are you must be a very nice person otherwise you wouldn't be like that and that's very good thing to be yeah it's very important that nice people are successful in art because there's a lot of assholes because you need to be an asshole

把这当作创新的机会。 看看怎么一起合作。 因为你......你肯定是个很好的人。 不然你不会是那样的人。 而这样做是很好的。 对，很重要的是，好人能成功。 在艺术里，因为有很多混蛋。 因为你得当个混蛋。

I you need to be greedy you need to be opportunistic and I am also like that if I see money on the table I want to have it yeah because how do you survive otherwise how do you feed a family with the crazy shit that we do that's not a lot of people want to buy that shit but a lot of people want to have it

你得贪心。 你得机会主义。 而我也是那样的。 如果我看到桌上有钱。 我就想要。 对，因为不然你怎么活下去？ 你怎么养家？ 还要面对我们做的那些疯狂的破事。 很多人不想买那种破事。 但很多人就是想要。

a lot of galleries want to have that because it's cool it's like fuck me the UBERMORGEN is super cool but they don't want to sell it because they know it's very hard to sell you know because audiences art collectors are very conservative rich assholes usually they're assholes not all of them

很多画廊都想要那样。 因为那很酷，就像"去他妈的"。 UBERMORGEN 也超级酷。 但他们不想卖。 因为他们知道卖起来很难。 你知道，因为观众、艺术收藏家。 都是很保守、很有钱的混蛋。 通常都是混蛋，不是全部都是。

so because yeah yeah. So you you need kind of that's why you need then also to work in a team with someone who can be an asshole but inside also has this kind of understanding that at least that there is that there are people in the team who are very caring and that he or she does not exploit this towards the inside to be an asshole

所以，嗯，对对。 所以你需要那种......所以你才需要。 另外还要和某个人一起组队合作。 他也可能是个混蛋。 但内心也要有这种理解。 至少要明白：有人在里面。 团队里有人非常关心。 而且他或她不会利用这一点。 把它内向，变成一个混蛋。

towards the outside that's absolutely important also you have to be hard sometimes because otherwise you get you get exploited you get exploited because you're you're basically too nice

对外也是这样，这也绝对重要。 有时候你得更硬。 不然你就会被利用。 你会被利用，因为你基本上太"好"了。

yeah. And it starts with the student shop that you're doing you know with taking pictures all the time like it's it's probably not paid enough for what you actually do that's called exploitation that's fine you know it's fine because you have to do things like that in your life in order to move on but you have to also learn

对，对。 而且这一切从学生会开始。 就是你在做的那个，你知道的。 一直在拍照。 感觉可能还不够钱。 来支撑你实际在做的事。 这就叫剥削。 这也没关系，你知道的。 没问题，因为你必须做这些事。 在你的生活里要这样做。 才能继续往前走。 但你也得学会。

that the next time with the next contract negotiations you have to like okay okay you know and that's another part of making art is really business and Liz is the advantage of Liz my partner is she's a business model she has no MFA she's not a master of fine arts she's a master of business administration

下次在下一轮合同谈判时， 你得说：好吧，好吧。 你知道，这也是做艺术的一部分。 其实就是做生意。 而Liz的优势在于Liz。 我的搭档，她是个商业模式型的人。 她没有MFA。 她不是美术硕士。 她是商务管理硕士。

that's also why she can run a department and that's. Also by the way why your director of the department Luke is capable of running this department in a in a probably very efficient and very good way with everybody has his problems everybody makes you know everybody is can you can criticize everybody

所以她也能管理一个部门。 就是这样。 顺便说一下，你们部门的主任为什么—— Luke能够管理这个部门。 而且可能非常高效。 而且做得很好。 每个人都有自己的问题。 大家都会，你知道的。 每个人都可能——你可以批评所有人。

but because he's he's very intelligent he has a level of intelligence and speed that enables him to take so many decisions every day and let's say 70% of the decisions are really good decisions and another 15% are okay and only five or seven percent are not so good and that's already in business that's extremely good

但因为他非常聪明。 他有一定程度的智力。 以及速度，让他能够承担—— 每天做出很多决定。 比如说，70%的决定—— 都是非常好的决定。 另外15%还算可以。 只有5%或7%—— 不太好。 而这在商业里本来就是这样。 这就非常好。

you know if you can reach that level of of percentage of good decisions you are successful and you are gonna do a good thing you know either it be a university department be a company or or or being government yeah and if you're not like that you know I'm not like that I'm not that intelligent I'm not that fast

你知道，如果你能达到那个水平—— 达到"好决定"的比例。 你就成功了。 而且你会做出好事。 你知道，可能是大学的部门。 可能是公司，或者政府部门。 对，而如果你不是那样的人—— 你知道，我也不是那样的。 我没那么聪明。 我也没那么快。

I'm not that educated so I need to do I need to work with someone like that and Liz is someone like that

我没那么受过教育。 所以我需要去做，我需要去努力。 和那样的人一起工作。 Liz也是这样的人。

yeah and you need these different functions the caring the super fast business people the really radical people the people with a lot of ideas who maybe are naive A lot of artists are not super smart because it's about something else it's about kind of feeling things also and and and and putting things together

对，而且你需要这些不同的职能。 那些很关心的、超快的商业人士。 那些非常激进的人。 那些想法很多的人。 可能还很天真。 很多艺术家并不是特别聪明。 因为这关乎的是别的东西。 也关乎那种感受、去体会事物。 还有把事情拼在一起。

and people and situations and and space and technologies and stuff like that

以及人和情境。 还有空间和技术。 以及类似的东西。

. And one thing we have to just be honest about the art world is a world dominated by men is a fact still dominated by men although a lot of curators are women in in the in in Europe at least and in the US but the directors and the key people the people with the main decisions are usually men and also the majority of the artists

还有一件事，我们得坦白说。 艺术界是一个由男性主导的世界。 这是事实。 至今仍然由男性主导。 不过很多策展人是女性。 至少在欧洲是这样。 在美国也是。 但导演和关键人物—— 也就是做主要决定的人—— 通常都是男性。 而且大多数艺术家——

who are successful especially also in the new technologies 90% 80% 70% men

尤其是成功的那些，在新技术领域的—— 90%、80%、70%都是男性。

. But they use the care work they use the social aspects they use what what traditionally women brought in in the patriarchal system and they need it and this is difficult for female artists you have to this is an extra layer of difficulty to deal with in the system and it starts as a studio. But this is a whole other a whole other topic

但他们会用"照顾工作"。 他们会用社会层面的东西。 他们会用传统上由女性带来的东西。 在父权制度里。 而他们需要这些。 这对女性艺术家来说很难。 你得——这是一层额外的困难。 在体系里要去应对。 而且一开始是从工作室开始。 但这又是另一个、另一个话题。

to discuss. Oh we're already running five minutes over so I suggest we do the second part after the after the lunch break and we start at 2:30 and I'm not gonna overdo it I'm gonna stay to the script 10 minutes and then we go and do some and do some work good. Yeah. See you at 2:30. So we thank you so much

需要讨论。 哦，我们已经超时五分钟了。 所以我建议我们做第二部分。 在午休之后。 我们2:30开始。 我不会太过头。 我会严格按脚本来。 10分钟。 然后我们就去做一些工作。 好。 嗯。 2:30见。 所以非常感谢大家。

. Oh okay. Time. No worries. Oh he's gone. No who. Oh no. Yeah but it was it was one one after 90 minutes. Yeah yeah. And then in overtime now or you know

哦，好。 时间到了。 没关系。 哦，他走了。 不是，谁？ 哦不。 是啊，但那是、那是11点。 90分钟之后。 对对。 然后现在加班了。 或者你知道的。 . 对 就必定是个很完整的。 对 就是过程的。

Yes. It has to be very complete. Yes. It's about the process. Oh God.

天哪。 我看一下。 辛辛苦苦的时候就是这样一个。 对 就是那个是过程他觉得那个可能有些进展嘛。 可能会带一点自己的解释咯 有个解释吧 应该就是你为什么找这个东西

Let me take a look. When you're struggling, it's like this. Yes. That's the process—he thinks there may be some progress. Maybe he'll add a bit of his own explanation. There's an explanation, right? It should be why you chose this thing.

嗯嗯嗯。

Mmhmm. Uh yeah sure so should I now. I can send it in now. Let me see

呃，对，当然。 那我现在要不要开始？ 我现在就可以发过去。 我看看。 . 那不就把你们这表情包贴进去做做一个那种效果图。 但其实我觉得可能第二组还没做

So just paste your stickers in there. And make an effect chart. But honestly, I think the second group hasn't done it yet. 。 I don't know

我不知道。 . 说实话感觉好奇怪

Honestly, it feels really weird.

。 我第二套。

My second set.

也就是老师我觉得第三组给的这个范围不是很清楚。 好 这第二组也是要做

I mean, teacher, I think the range the third group gave isn't very clear. Okay. This second group also needs to be done.

。 AI 可以啊 或者就是很好

Sure. Or it's just really good.

。 那我学校不就是要列一个那种提示词。 我知道 可是我想问一下 他会帮。 应该会吧 就你看需要什么样的。 那可以像。 可以啊。 一个人。 那我需要什么 我这边的。 好。 对。 嗯

So isn't my school supposed to list a prompt like that? I know. But I want to ask something. Will he help? Probably. It just depends on what you need. Then it can be like that. Sure. One person. Then what do I need? On my side? Okay. Yes. Mmhmm.

。 我老想试一下那些软件来。 因为可能我这边没用过

I keep wanting to try those software too. Because I may not have used it on my end. Hello. This is really good. It's super sweet. Yeah.

你好。 这真的很好。 真的特别棒。 嗯。

Okay. Last round. Let's go.

好的。 最后一轮。 走吧。

So you can lay back and just listen for 10 minutes. And eat. And we discuss a little bit. And then I posted some stuff on the group. Easy. Easy challenge. For this afternoon. I will talk about that later.

所以你可以放松一下，就听着。 听10分钟。 然后吃饭。 我们再稍微聊一会儿。 然后我在群里发了些东西。 在群里。 很简单。 简单的挑战。 就今天下午这次。 我之后会讲这个。

So— Uh, for part two, it's called "One Subject." No, wait.

所以—— 呃，第二部分叫做 "一个主题"。 不，等等。

"One Subject, Not Two." Um, yeah, I want to close the week and. Do that, I have to tell you something you may not have noticed, or maybe you have noticed while it was happening. So the workshop looked like two different workshops, and the first half we talked about the vibe, right? What the vibe is, how it arrives,

"一个主题，不是两个。" 嗯，对，我想用这个来结束这一周。 然后。 在那之前，我得跟你说件事。 你可能没注意到， 或者你可能已经注意到了， 在这事发生的时候。 所以这次工作坊看起来像两场不同的工作坊， 前半段我们聊的是氛围，对吧？ 氛围是什么，它是怎么来的，

before you can explain it, how it is made underneath by a machine you cannot see, and then. Switched in the second half, you know, we talked about governance. Rules. Charters. Admissions. Who decides how a group founds itself. So it was vibe week, and then it was our vibe and feel week, and then it was constitution week.

在你还能解释之前， 它在下面是怎么由一台机器制造的， 你看不见的那台， 然后。 到了后半段，你知道， 我们聊了治理。 规则。 章程。 录取。 谁来决定一个团体如何成立。 所以那是一周关于氛围的， 然后又是我们的氛围与感受周， 再然后是宪法周。

And felt like two different subjects. And many of you obviously felt the switch. Sometimes in the middle. And probably some of you liked one half more than the other. Or were more interested. I want to tell you that they were never two different subjects. They were always one. And smooth is the proof,

感觉就像两个不同的主题。 你们很多人显然都感受到了这种切换。 有时在中间。 而且可能你们有些人更喜欢这一半，而不是另一半。 或者更感兴趣。 我想告诉你们，它们从来都不是两个不同的主题。 它们一直都是一个。 而"顺畅"就是证明，

which is why I took you there in the middle, between the two halves. Exactly at the hinge. Oops.

所以我才把你带到中间那一段， 在两半之间。 正好卡在关键点。 哎呀。

Oops.

哎呀。

Oops.

哎呀。

So think about what smooth actually is as a machine so it has an admission rule. The only thing's generic enough. Smooth enough. Empty enough are allowed in. And then it has an arrangement rule. A boring white background, and then one or gray, and then one engaging thing placed against it. Like a dove, or a sound,

所以想想"顺畅"到底是什么， 就像一台机器，它有一个录取规则。 唯一的是，它已经够笼统了。 顺畅到够了。 空空的也被允许进来。 然后它还有一个排列规则。 一个无聊的白色背景， 然后一个灰色的， 再对着它放一个有趣的东西。 比如一只鸽子，或者一个声音，

or a colored face. Video. So the room does not die of sterility. And it has an attribution rule. The residents on the screens have no authors and no names. They perform connection to an empty room and no one signs it. So it's admission, arrangement, and attribution. Those are the three rules you spent this week

或者一个彩色的脸。 视频。 所以这个房间并不会因为无菌而死。 而且它有一个归因规则。 屏幕上的住户没有作者， 也没有名字。 他们把连接做成一个空房间， 却没有人签名。 所以它是录取、排列和归因。 这就是你这周花时间写的三条规则，

writing into your own charter. Or you will. So smooth is governed. It has a constitution. Every choice about the surface is a rule, and the rules are strict. And what does this strict little government produce at the end? In the body of the person walking through it, again a feeling, a vibe. The question: where do the emotions go

写进你自己的章程里。 或者你会这么做。 所以"顺畅"是受治理的。 它有一套宪法。 关于表面的每一个选择都是一条规则， 而这些规则很严格。 那么这个严格的小政府最终会产生什么？ 到最后呢？ 在那个走过它的人身体里， 又是一种感觉、一种氛围。 问题是：情绪会去哪里，

was made physical in the exhibition. Smooth is a set of rules that manufactures a feeling.

在展览中被做成了"物质化"的形式。 "顺畅"是一套规则， 它制造出一种感觉。

And your entity, the thing that you have been building for 4 days, is the mirror of that. And it might not feel as you have been building something, because maybe you have not built something. Here. But you've built it in your head, or in your body, and in your— in your system.

而你的实体——你一直在构建的那个东西—— 用了4天，就是它的镜像。 它可能不会让人感觉像你在建造某样东西， 因为也许你并没有真的建成什么。 在这里。 但你把它建在了你的脑子里， 或者在你的身体里，还有在你的—— 在你的系统里。

So you started by trying to make a vibe, or a feel, and you discovered you could not make a vibe without writing rules. Who gets in? Who— how it is arranged? Who— who is named? What the name of the system is? So we tried to write a small government, in order to produce a feeling. So look at what we have.

所以你一开始就试着做出一种氛围， 或者一种感觉，然后你发现 没有写规则，你是做不出氛围的。 谁能进来？ 谁——它是怎么安排的？ 谁——谁被命名？ 系统叫什么名字？ 所以我们试着写一份小政府， 以便产生一种感觉。 所以看看我们现在有什么。

On one side, a feeling that turned out to be governed by hidden rules. We don't really know them. On the other— A set of rules that exist only to produce a feeling. And these are the same objects. Seen from two different ends. I know it's complicated. It's supposed to be kind of complicated. It's also complicated for me.

一边是一种感觉，结果被治理成了 由隐藏的规则来掌控。 我们其实并不真正知道它们。 另一边——是一套规则， 它们只存在就是为了产生一种感觉。 而这些都是同样的对象。 从两个不同的角度来看。 我知道这很复杂。 按理说它应该有点复杂。 对我来说也很复杂。

When something is complicated, sometimes it's good to just go along. And then you have associations, or you have some resistance, or something. And that's actually the interesting thing, and not the fully understanding what is meant. Yeah?

当某件事很复杂时，有时候最好是 顺其自然地走下去。 然后你就会产生联想， 或者有些抵抗，或者别的什么。 而这其实才是有意思的地方， 而不是完全理解它到底是什么意思。 对吧？

So a vibe is an aesthetics you can feel, but cannot see the rules of. I think that's a good conclusion of the week. Of what we learned. Or we— together we learned. A charter is the rules with the feeling stripped off. So you can read them. But it's the same machine. The surface and the constitution are the same thing

所以"氛围"是一种你能感受到的美学， 但你看不到它的规则。 我觉得这就是这一周的个人总结。 关于我们学到的东西。 或者说——我们一起学到的。 章程就是把那种感觉去掉的规则。 所以你可以读出来。 但它还是同一台机器。 表面和宪法是同一回事，

at two different layers. You cannot touch a vibe without touching governance. Because it's— it's right there. And you cannot write a rule without producing a vibe. As we said, a voting system has a feeling. A feed has a law. And that is the whole week in one line. That— that's the— that's the core paragraph.

只是存在于两层不同的层面。 你不能去触碰一种氛围， 除非你也在触碰治理。 因为它——它就在那里。 而且你不能写一条规则， 却不产生一种氛围。 就像我们说的，投票制度 有一种感觉。 一条信息流就有一条法律。 而这就是一整周的内容， 一句话就说完了。 那——那就是——那就是核心段落。

And I'm only going to say it once.

而且我只会说一次。

But I'm going to put it up here. This one. I think this is the essence. Aesthetics is governance you can feel. And governance is aesthetics you can enforce.

但我会把它放在这里。 就这个。 我觉得这就是精髓。 美学就是你能感受到的治理。 而治理就是你能强制执行的美学。

And this is not new for us. Look at our own manifesto. The one we work by. No color correction. So this is— this is a UBERMORGEN reference. This is a bit complicated now. It's a— an aesthetics manifesto that we wrote. I can also post it in the group. It says, um, that we do not— we don't do color corrections.

这对我们来说并不新鲜。 看看我们自己的宣言。 我们以此为准则工作的那份。 不做色彩校正。 所以这——这是一个 UBERMORGEN 的引用。 现在这就有点复杂了。 这是一份——一份美学宣言， 是我们写的。 我也可以把它发到群里。 上面写着，呃，我们不—— 我们不做色彩校正。

That we keep the friction. That we use clarity as a weapon. Yeah? And it sounds like a paste. Yeah? The manifesto. But it's not paste. It's basically governance decisions about the surface. So when we refuse to smooth an image by, for example, color grading it or something, we're legislating what you're allowed to feel

我们保留摩擦感。 我们把清晰当作武器。 对吧？ 听起来就像一张粘贴纸。 对吧？ 那份宣言。 但它不是粘贴纸。 它基本上就是治理层面的决定， 关于表面的决定。 所以当我们拒绝把一幅图像"平滑"过程， 比如用色彩校正之类的， 我们就在立法你被允许去感受什么，

when you look at it. So this aesthetics manifesto and the charter are the same document, written at two different layers of the same machine.

当你看着它的时候。 所以这份美学宣言， 以及章程，是同一份文件， 写在同一台机器的两层不同层面上。

This—

这——

So, coming to an end, huh?

所以，说到最后，嗯？

So here is what we actually learned. Or actually I— you tell me that. What we— what we learned this week, under all of it.

所以这就是我们实际学到的。 或者说其实是我——你告诉我。 我们——我们这周学到的， 在这一切之下。

We learned, or we can learn, or we could have learned, to stop working only on the surface where it is safe and visible, and everyone can clap. Or hate. We learned to go one layer down, into the rules and into the arrangement and the orchestration where the real decisions are made, and where almost no artists bother to look.

我们学到了，或者我们可以学到， 或者我们本可以学到， 不再只在表面上工作， 在那里它是安全、可见的， 而且大家都能鼓掌。 或者恨。 我们学会了往下走一层， 进入规则，进入安排， 以及协调——真正的决策发生的地方， 几乎没有艺术家会费心去看。

Or work. We learned that the feeling and the law are basically the same thing. Just from different angles. And we learned— We learned that not by reading it, but by building a small governance a government out of nothing, with our own hands. And feeling what this government produced. This would be the charter.

或者去工作。 我们学到，感觉和法则 基本上是同一回事。 只是从不同角度来看。 而我们学到—— 我们学到的不是通过阅读， 而是通过建立一个小型治理体系， 一个从虚无中建立起来的政府， 用我们自己的双手。 并去感受这个政府所产生的东西。 这就是章程。

We're going to— we're going to look at that, huh? So now this afternoon, is yours the next, uh, like, 2 hours? I'm not going to teach. So each group, or each person, is going to, uh, to make and write, or do, and then in the end we're going to make a really quick round and you just say— you can just say something,

我们要——我们要看看那个，嗯？ 所以今天下午， 接下来这大概，呃，2小时是你的时间吗？ 我不打算教。 所以每个小组，或者每个人， 都会，呃，做出并写出， 或者去做，然后最后 我们会做一个非常快的回合， 你就说——你可以随便说点什么，

or you can show something, or you don't.

或者你可以展示点什么， 或者你不展示。

Um, and what you maybe— what there— if there is an intention, or if there's something you want to continue. And just show what you have, and what you think. Not what it should be, or could be. Just what it is. And maybe where it can go next. And this whole process that we are in now does not end today.

嗯，还有你可能—— 如果有意图的话， 或者你想继续做的事情。 你就展示你有什么， 以及你怎么想。 不是它应该是什么，或可能是什么。 就是它本来的样子。 也许再说它接下来可以走到哪里。 而我们现在所处的整个过程， 并不是今天就结束。

It's may— it's kind of like a, you know, it's— and it's not going to be for everybody. Like, maybe it's just 2 people who are going to be kind of influenced by what we discussed, in a way that they're going to adapt. And change some things, and others, for them, it will just be an experience, or some knowhow, or it will feel like nothing.

它可能——有点像，你知道的， 它——而且不会适合所有人。 比如说，也许只有两个人 会在某种程度上受到影响， 被我们讨论的内容影响，以一种方式 让他们去适应。 并且改变一些东西， 而对他们来说，其他就只是一种体验， 或者一些技术知识，或者会觉得像什么都没有。

Which is also fine. We're not, um, production machines. We don't have to function all the time and learn as a product.

这也没关系。 我们不是，呃，生产机器。 我们不必一直在运转， 也不必作为产品不断学习。

Yeah. That's basically it.

对。 基本就这些。

So,.

所以，。

Yeah, I think we're going to— Um, we could do the same thing as in the morning, but I think we're going to— we're just going to hand over, like, to you, and you're just going to do. And I'm going to be here, and you can come to me, or— or call me if you want to talk about something, and then I'll— I'll bring the translator

对，我觉得我们要—— 嗯，我们也可以做同样的事， 就像早上那样， 但我觉得我们要—— 我们就把话筒交给你， 然后你就去做。 我会在这里， 你可以来找我， 或者——如果你想聊点什么就打给我， 然后我会——我会把翻译带来，

and we can talk. If you want that. And if not, I'll— I'll just be around. It doesn't have to be, huh? And I'm going to tell you what I posted in the group. You can— it's— it's translated.

我们就可以聊。 如果你想要的话。 如果不想，我——我就在附近。 不一定要这样，嗯？ 我会告诉你我发了什么， 在群里。 你可以——它——它是翻译过的。

Um,. So the basic idea would be— and this is so easy to do. You just have to understand what it is. Yeah? I just posted a basic chart or structure and you look it up, what a chart or is. We talked about it, but it's— it's quite— it's quite difficult to understand. Like, the UN has a charter. Or, um, um, different organizations,

嗯，。 所以基本想法是—— 而且这个做起来非常简单。 你只需要理解它是什么。 对吧？ 我刚发了一个基础的图表或结构， 你去查一下， 图表到底是什么。 我们谈过这个， 但它——它挺——挺难理解的。 比如说，联合国有一份章程。 或者，嗯，嗯，不同的组织，

they have charters. They're like, kind of found in documents where— where things are in there about the thing that they do. It's abstract. But that's why I— I took an example. I made an example. And you can kind of copy the structure if you want. It's actually— you can do 3 or 4 or 5 or 10 articles.

他们都有章程。 它们有点像是在文件里找到的， 就是——就是里面有一些内容， 关于他们所做的事情。 这很抽象。 但这就是为什么我——我举了个例子。 我做了一个例子。 如果你愿意，也可以大致照着这个结构来。 其实——你可以做3个、4个或5个， 甚至10篇文章。

Um, and then you can just post it in the group. If you don't want to do that, it's fine. No need to do it. But that would be my suggestion to quickly do that. You can do that in 15 minutes. And you are working on other stuff, I think, some of you, and you just continue working on that. If you work on a little project,

嗯，然后你就直接发出去， 在群里。 如果你不想那样做， 也没关系。 没必要做。 但我的建议是， 尽快把它做完。 你15分钟就能做完。 而且你还在做别的东西， 我想你们当中有些人， 你就继续做那个。 如果你做一个小项目，

on a little— or you have a discussion group on something, or like that. Yeah? And then we're going to finish at 4.

做一个小——或者你有个讨论小组， 围绕某个话题之类的。 对吧？ 然后我们4点结束。

Good.

好。