Let's begin. The system side, and then the half questions. Okay, yeah, what do you want to say?

我们开始吧。 先从系统这部分，然后是那些半个问题。 好，嗯，你想说什么？ 可以说中文吗？这个。

Can I speak Chinese? This one. Mmhm.

嗯哼。 呃，我觉得那个关于AI的，好像是关于宠物的一个主题的作品，

Uh, I think the part about AI, it seems like it's a work on a pet theme,

它看起来好像和整个展厅的比较安静的氛围有一点不太一样。我想问一下，你对于那个作品的看法，或者说觉不觉得它会破坏了这个和谐之类的？因为不管是从它的颜色，还是从它的主题上面。

and it looks a bit different from the overall quiet atmosphere in the whole exhibition hall. I want to ask, what's your take on that work, or do you feel it might disrupt this kind of harmony? Because whether it's its color, or its theme. I have to ask back. Um, 6.1, it's like a work on a pet theme? You're referring to the ecoconlur exhibition part? The colorful exhibition part? Okay.

我得反问一下。 嗯，6.1，它算是围绕宠物主题的作品吗？ 你是指 ecoconlur 展览的那部分吗？ 彩色展览那部分？ 好。

And the second one—oh, so you ask if together—I think it disrupts kind of this white and calm harmony of the exhibition that we are doing? No. I—actually, I think it's very nice combination. Because you have to understand, or you don't have to, but our intention to do this white harmony is not because we like this kind of aesthetics.

然后第二个——哦，所以你是在问是否结合在一起—— 我觉得它会破坏那种白色而平和的和谐， 也就是我们正在做的这场展览的和谐？ 不。 我——其实我觉得这个组合很不错。 因为你得理解——或者也不一定要理解—— 但我们做这种白色和谐的目的， 并不是因为我们喜欢这种美学。

It's—it looks like a house of a stupid billionaire, you know, like postbeige super boring, everything white, everything smooth, everything horrible, in a way, you know? But these people are like that. They have, like, no surfaces anymore. They are—they have no identity anymore. They don't exist, in a way.

它——它看起来像个蠢亿万富翁的房子， 你懂的，那种米色之后的超级无聊， 一切都是白的、一切都很顺滑、一切都很糟糕， 某种意义上是这样，你懂吧？ 但这些人就是那样。 他们好像已经没有任何表面了。 他们——他们已经没有身份认同了。 某种意义上，他们不存在了。

And we wanted to portray that. And so eco chose a completely different approach.

而我们想把这种感觉呈现出来。 所以 eco 选择了一种完全不同的方法。

Like, a very synthetic, like, a beastshumanfemalegenderqueer approach to her work. And the overall topic I think really connects. And for me, that's much more important than aesthetics. So the—what is on the lying? Because our work, and Eko's work, is founded on years of thinking, research, developing,

比如说，非常合成的、像野兽人女性跨性别的那种方法， 来呈现她的作品。 而我觉得整体主题确实很连接。 对我来说，这比美学重要得多。 所以——那里面到底是什么在谎言里？ 因为我们的作品，还有 Eko 的作品， 都建立在多年的思考、研究、开发之上，

and it's not—we don't do art, and Eco, I know because she used to be a student of mine in 13 years ago, and she's now a professor in Wuhan. I know that it's so deep. So what you see here is just the surface.

而且这不是——我们不做艺术， 而 Eco，我知道，因为她以前是我的学生， 在 13 年前， 她现在在武汉当教授。 我知道这非常深刻。 所以你在这里看到的只是表面。

And so I—I have absolutely a positive. Feelings in this sense.

所以我——我完全是积极的。 在这个意义上有正面的感受。

Thank you.

谢谢。 好的。 我想问一下，那个"柔软的床"的房间，那个不光是怎么布置的？

Okay. I want to ask—about the room called "the soft bed," how is it decorated? The light. Do you mean the—how—what do you mean by the light? Oh, the lights on the side? The four lights? Yeah. So I can tell you the genesis of the history of how this came about. So I'll show you the plans, actually. I could show you the plans. It's really—it's hilarious. You're not going to believe it.

光线。 你是指——怎么说——你说的"光"是什么意思？ 哦，侧面的灯光？ 那四盏灯？ 对。 所以我可以跟你说说这个故事的起源， 也就是它是怎么形成的。 我其实可以给你看这些图纸。 我可以把图纸给你看。 真的——太搞笑了。 你不会相信的。

It's for—wait a second. So this, by the way, you can—now you can see how we work, huh? So this is the—this is the exhibition. So this is my file system. So we have all the, like, travel and—oh, sorry, I have to— Look at that. So you can actually—

这是为了——等一下。 顺便说一下，这个你可以—— 现在你能看到我们是怎么做的了，对吧？ 所以这就是——这就是展览。 这是我的文件系统。 我们这里有各种比如说旅行的—— 哦，抱歉，我得—— 看看那个。 所以你其实可以——

So I imagine for art students, it might be interesting to see how artists actually work. So that's why I show you this.

所以我想对艺术学生来说， 看看可能会很有意思， 艺术家实际上是怎么工作的。 所以这就是我给你看这个的原因。

So— Let me show—what do we have here?

所以—— 我给你看——我们这里有什么？

So for the— I want to find the plans. Because it's very nice to see—so the idea initially, the idea was to have large really boring prints on the wall. To have like art, basically. And then Billie and I said, no, we don't want to do that. And always when you do an exhibition like that, it's very complex to build.

所以关于——我想找到这些图纸。 因为看到这些真的很不错—— 所以最初的想法是， 做一些很大、非常无聊的印刷品， 贴在墙上。 基本上就是要有艺术感。 然后Billie和我说， 不，我们不想这么做。 而且每次你做这种展览时， 搭建起来都非常复杂。

Because it's so many people working on it. It's craftspeople. It's producers. You don't see that. You never see that. There's a whole office with people who produce, who work on marketing, coordination, communication, production, finances, a director who has everything under control. It's a big operation.

因为有很多人在做。 都是手艺人。 还有制作人。 你看不出来。 你永远看不到。 有一整个办公室都是制作的人， 做营销、协调、沟通， 制作、财务，还有一位导演， 把一切都掌控在手里。 这是一个大型的运营。

And then we come in, and we have to get to know everybody. We have to understand, oh, this person is responsible for that. And then we have to learn about the internal dynamics. So is this person maybe in a fight with this person? Then we have a problem, because then they don't work with us properly,

然后我们一进来， 就得了解每一个人。 我们得明白，哦，这个人负责 这件事。 然后我们还得了解内部的互动机制。 所以这个人是不是在和这个人吵架， 是不是和这个人在争？ 那我们就有问题了， 因为他们就没法正确地和我们合作，

because they have a problem. And you know, all this kind of stuff. You would never think about that if you go to an exhibition, right? So one of the things that I like to do is make things simpler. Because you're always imagining the exhibition. Yeah, we're going to make that, and that, and that, and then we're going to make it that way

因为他们有问题。 你知道的，就是这些东西。 如果你不做这些， 你去参加展览，你就不会这么想，对吧？ 所以我喜欢做的一件事是， 把事情做得更简单。 因为你总是在想象展览。 对，我们要做这个， 还有那个，还有那个， 然后我们要按那种方式来做，

and that way. And then you come here, and you confront it with reality. Budget, money, material, people, time. Time is very important, you know, because time is ticking, ticking, ticking. And then you have to finish. And so we decided, now let's drop it. Let's not put anything on the walls. Let's use the lights.

再按那种方式。 然后你来到这里， 就把它和现实对照。 预算、钱、材料、人、时间。 时间非常重要，你知道的， 因为时间在一直滴答、滴答、滴答地过去。 然后你就得把它做完。 所以我们决定，现在先不管了。 墙上什么都别放。 用灯光吧。

And then the lights, we said, we can do that on the last day. We have an idea. But it's not conceptual in the sense that I said it's conceptual. It's more stupid. Really stupid. We were like the same here

然后灯光方面，我们说， 我们可以放在最后一天再做。 我们有个想法。 但它不是那种概念性的，意思是说 我说它是概念性的。 它更蠢。真的很蠢。 我们在这里也差不多一样，

with this Large carpet installation. This is not good art. This is really bad art. Don't do that. Okay? Except you really know what you're doing. Then you can do it. But otherwise, people will think you're an idiot. If you do something like that. So don't look at what we are doing and think, oh, no, okay,

就像这次大型地毯装置一样。 这不是好艺术。 这真的是很差的艺术。 别这么做。 好吗？除非你真的知道 你在做什么。 那你才能做。 不然的话，人们会觉得 你是个傻子。 如果你做了那种事。 所以别看我们在做什么， 然后就觉得，哦，不，好吧，

they do it, we can also do it. No, no, no, no. We did it to fuck around with ourselves. Because we were like, okay, this room is empty. That doesn't work. So we ordered a carpet. But the carpet was shit. Cheap and crumbled. And it wasn't nice. So then we looked at each other, like three days before the opening,

他们做了，我们也能做。 不，不，不，不。 我们做这个是为了玩一玩， 拿我们自己开玩笑。 因为我们当时想，好吧， 这个房间是空的。 这不行。 所以我们订了一张地毯。 但那张地毯烂得要命。 又便宜又烂。 而且一点也不好看。 于是我们互相对视， 大概在开幕前三天，

and said, I have an idea. And she said, Billie said, I also have an idea. I said, what? She said, you know, just do that. I said, yeah, exactly. I had the same idea. Okay, let's try. You know, and you try. And then we tried. And they were like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay, okay. It's stupid, but it works, you know?

我们说，我有个主意。 然后她说，Billie说， 我也有个主意。 我说，什么？ 她说，你知道的，就做那个。 我说，对，没错。 我也有同样的主意。 好，那就试试。 你知道的，然后你试试。 然后我们试了。 他们就说，嗯嗯嗯。 好好好。 很蠢，但确实有用，你懂吧？

Because it needs this object in the room. And then we really—then a lot of work went into it, because we had to really do it in a way that it stabilized. So we put a lot of material underneath. You don't see it. We used a lot of, like, fixing elements. And it still works. I mean, I thought it's going to break

因为这个东西需要在房间里。 然后我们真的——然后就做了很多工作， 因为我们必须真的 用一种能让它稳定下来的方式来做。 所以我们把很多材料 放在下面。 你看不出来。 我们用了很多那种固定元素。 但它还是能用。 我是说，我以为它会坏，

after a short while. I wanted to show you the plans. I wanted to show you that. Because the whole exhibition was designed by AI. But by a really, really good artist. My partner and the mother of the two girls, Liz. She's a—she's a little bit like Luke. She's like a genius. Super fast, can do anything,

过一会儿就会。 我想给你们看这些图纸。 我想把那个给你们看。 因为整个展览都是由AI设计的， 由AI。 而且是由一位非常非常优秀的艺术家设计的。 我的搭档，还有两个女孩的母亲， Liz。 她——她有点像Luke。 她就像个天才。 超级快，什么都能做，

could do physics, professor, or research, or could do whatever, you know? Maybe not sports. I don't know. So where is this fucking thing? Give me one minute to find it. So I'm not just here. You're around here. Exhibition. This is funding here. All that is just for funding. Just for raising money from Austria and Switzerland.

可以做物理、教授，或者做研究， 或者做什么都行，你懂吧？ 可能不是运动。 我也不知道。 所以这他妈的东西在哪儿？ 给我一分钟找一下。 所以我不只是站在这儿。 你就在这附近。 展览。 这里是资金。 这些都只是为了筹资。 就是为了从奥地利和瑞士筹钱。

Here. That's how it looks then. You have this application. You put it in. You describe it. You give a budget. This is all in the back of an exhibition like that. So just so you understand how much—work goes into something like that. Oh, sorry. Here you can. You can read up.

这里。 那时候它就是这个样子。 你有这个应用。 你把它放进去。 你描述它。 你给出预算。 这些都在那种展览的后面。 所以只是让你明白有多—— 这种东西要投入多少工作。 哦，抱歉。 你可以在这里。 你可以看一下。

Oh, I think this is a— Yeah, that was my first draft. Sorry. That was the first idea. I wanted to do something like that. That was what I wanted to do. You know? Something like that. Is it AI made on? Yeah, it's all AI. It's Gemini, super fast. I'm not a visual artist. So I use Gemini. I just say, certain room projection,

哦，我觉得这是个—— 对，那是我的第一个草稿。 抱歉。 那是第一个想法。 我想做点类似的东西。 那就是我想做的。 你懂吧？ 差不多那样。 这是用AI做出来的吗？ 对，全都是AI。 是Gemini，超级快。 我不是视觉艺术家。 所以我用Gemini。 我就说，比如某个房间的投影，

mountains, take. But I do a lot of work like that. We—it actually works quite well, because it's like sketching, you know? It's like you sketch an idea, but I cannot draw. So I use AI now. It's quite good. Sorry. Yeah.

山，然后就拍。 但我也做很多类似的工作。 我们——其实效果挺好的， 因为它就像速写，你懂吧？ 就像你先画一个想法， 但我画不出来。 所以我现在用AI。 挺不错的。 抱歉。 嗯。 效果很好。

The result is very good. To the fact. Yeah, I like it too. I would like to build that. Yeah, actually, I would like to build that. Should we go up for the lunch? I mean, not all the fish. Pieces. Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Gemini. Because we want to know the works, the image, the story of the image. Yes, yes, I understand. And with the topic.

说到底。 对，我也喜欢。 我也想做那个。 对，其实我也想做那个。 我们要不要上去吃午饭？ 我是说，不是所有的鱼。 是每一块。 啊，对对对。 Gemini。 因为我们想知道这些作品， 这些画面，以及这些画面的故事。 是是是，我明白。 还有主题。

And— I honestly—honestly, I cannot tell you, because this is Liz, my partner, who did that. And I don't ask her these kind of questions, because we don't work like that. Well, you can see my answer here. We work in a way that she does something, and then I just take it and put it on, you know? I mean, the images of the people

然后—— 说实话——说实话，我没法告诉你， 因为这是我的搭档Liz， 是她做的。 而且我不会问她这种问题， 因为我们不是那样合作的。 不过，你在这里可以看到我的回答。 我们的方式是她先做点什么， 然后我就把它拿来上上去，你懂吧？ 我是说，那些人的画面

here she was just doing it in Vienna, sending it overnight. We downloaded and put it on the screens. And then we sent her a picture, or we say, yeah, it's like maybe—we give a little bit of feedback, maybe. Sometimes we give no feedback. We just put it on. It's what I—but only you, I think, were in the workshop.

她当时是在维也纳做的， 一夜之间就发出去了。 我们下载后放到屏幕上。 然后我们给她发了一张照片， 或者我们说，嗯，可能是—— 我们会给一点反馈，可能吧。 有时候我们不给反馈。 我们就直接上传。 这就是我——不过我觉得只有你， 是在工作坊里。

I talked in the workshop about teamwork, and how important trust is. If you can trust each other, and it's not—you don't have to be friends to trust. You have to be—you have to be open in order to say, I believe you are good at what you do. I believe that you don't want to harm us and our project. And hence, I trust that you're going to do

我在工作坊里聊了团队合作， 以及信任有多重要。 如果你们能互相信任， 而且不是——不一定要是朋友才能信任。 你得——你得坦诚开放， 这样你才能说：我相信你很擅长 你所做的事情。 我相信你不想伤害 我们和我们的项目。 所以我相信你会做到

the best that you can. And that's the way we also work here in China, in a museum. I don't know if I can trust the people here. I don't know what their intentions are, but I know that they also want an exhibition that is running in the end. So I trust that they will do everything, that it's going to happen.

你能做到的最好。 这也是我们在中国这边工作的方式， 在博物馆里。 我不知道我能不能信任这里的人。 我不知道他们的意图是什么， 但我知道他们也希望有一个展览 最终能在那里举办。 所以我相信他们会把一切都做好， 而且会真的发生。

You know? So we do our part, and I trust that they do their part. And this is what you have to achieve as an artist. Once you have done big shows, all the museums and all the galleries and all the people know that you can deliver— And that's the most important thing. It's much more important if the art is good or not.

你懂吧？ 所以我们做我们的部分， 我也相信他们会做他们的部分。 而这就是你作为艺术家必须达成的， 作为艺术家。 一旦你做了大型展览， 所有博物馆、所有画廊 以及所有人都知道 你能交付成果—— 而这才是最重要的。 作品到底好不好，这比那重要得多。

That doesn't matter so much. It's much more important that you can show I can do it in budget, in time, I can do it in a good way, so not the whole museum goes crazy. You know? And you're not an asshole. Some artists are like divas, you know? They come in and say, no, this wall needs to change. We have to put it one meter down.

那其实没那么重要。 更重要的是你能展示出来， 我能在预算内、按时完成， 我能用好的方式去做， 这样就不会让整个博物馆都炸锅。 你懂吧？ 而且你不是个混蛋。 有些艺术家就像女神一样，你懂吧？ 她们一进来就说：不，这面墙得改。 我们得把它往下移一米。

And shit like that. Now, very, very big artists, some of them can do that, and some of them—people want them to be that diva, because it's part of their brand. UBERMORGEN is the opposite. We adapt. We are very adaptable. We take any room that comes. If the museum says, no, this is not possible, we say, yes.

诸如此类的。 现在，那些非常非常大的艺术家， 有些人能做到， 而有些人——人们希望她们成为那种女神， 因为这是她们品牌的一部分。 UBERMORGEN 恰恰相反。 我们会适应。 我们非常适应性强。 不管哪个房间出现，我们都能接受。 如果博物馆说：不，这不可能， 我们就说：可以。

Yes, great. We do something else. It's a much smarter strategy for me. It's less stress. It's more—it's also ecological. You don't ask all the time for new things. You use what is there. Yeah, stuff like that.

好，太好了。 我们换点别的做。 对我来说这是个更聪明的策略。 压力也更小。 而且更——也更环保。 你不会一直去要求新东西。 你就用现有的东西。 对，就是这种东西。

And so—and why do you set this topic? It's smooth. You can say it in Chinese and then they can also— It's fine. You can just talk. It'll hear you. Okay.

那——你为什么要谈这个话题？ 这很顺。 你可以用中文说， 然后他们也可以—— 没问题。 你就直接说。 他们会听到你的。 好。 那为什么这一次的展览主题一定做"丝滑"？就是为什么要选择"丝滑"这个词？然后这个是你们团队之间，就是你们合作的合作者之间的共鸣吗？然后的话，你们当初选这个题目的契机是什么？

So why does this exhibition theme have to be "silky smooth"? Why did they choose the word "silky smooth"? And is this something between your teams, like a resonance among the people working with you? And what was the trigger for you choosing this title back then? So—yeah. So as I said in the—in the little presentation—no, in the little guided tour that I made, the idea of smooth is that we believe we have analyzed that the world has become extremely functional, extremely smooth. You go—you are in your house and you order food. It just arrives. You want to go somewhere,

所以——对。 就像我在——在那个小演示里说的—— 不，是在那个小型导览参观里， 就是我做的那个， "smooth"的概念是：我们相信 我们分析过，世界已经变得极其功能化， 非常顺滑。 你走进——你在自己的房子里， 然后点餐。 它就这么送到。 你想去某个地方，

you order a DD, it'll arrive exactly the moment you can look where it is. Everything runs smooth. There is no friction anymore. But humans are not like that. We still have a lot of emotion. Where does all—where do all these emotions go? And then you look in the internet, on social media, and you see people going crazy about some weird stuff.

你点一份DD， 它会在你看到它在哪儿的那一刻就送到。 一切都很顺畅。 已经没有摩擦了。 但人类不是那样的。 我们仍然有很多情绪。 这些情绪——这些情绪都去哪儿了？ 然后你在网上看， 在社交媒体上， 你会看到有人为一些奇怪的东西发疯。

They start to fight, and you think, what are you doing? And then you see, oh, that's where the emotions are. But in a very weird way. And so this is the basic question we have, yeah? And that's why we call it smooth. The basic research we did in the last 2 to 3 years we called "ugly" because we were looking at a rightwing political movements

他们开始吵架， 你就会想：你在干什么？ 然后你会发现，哦， 情绪就在那里。 但方式非常奇怪。 所以这就是我们的基本问题，对吧？ 这就是我们把它叫作"smooth"的原因。 我们在过去2到3年里做的基础研究 我们称之为"丑"，因为我们在研究右翼政治运动

and people in Europe and in the US, and we were wondering why do they look so ugly, why is the political aesthetics so ugly, and from the ugly research, we came to the smooth, because the world is so smooth. So we start with one research topic, and then for the exhibition we started to turn it around

以及欧洲和美国的人 我们在想他们为什么看起来这么丑 为什么政治审美会这么丑 而从这些丑陋的研究来看 我们得出了"smooth"的结论 因为世界本来就这么平滑 所以我们从一个研究主题开始 然后为了展览，我们开始把它扭转过来

. It's a very dynamic process. It's not planned, it's really live, developed. It's foundational research, and then live development, based on the foundational research. It's basically like in science, people work, you know, they make experiments with stuff, and then they find something, and then other people take over

这是一个非常动态的过程 它不是计划好的 而是真正的现场 被发展出来的 这是基础研究 然后是现场开发 基于基础研究 基本上就像科学界一样 人们在工作，你懂的 他们用各种东西做实验 然后他们发现了什么 接着就由别人接手

, you know, R&D, research and development, and they make a product out of it. And for us, this exhibition is just a product. It's not that important. The more important thing is the research and it's the discussions that we have with each other, because that's what we are interested in, the exhibition is just like a picture

你懂的 R&D，也就是研发 然后他们把它做成产品 而对我们来说 这个展览就是一个产品 它没那么重要 更重要的是研究 以及我们彼此之间的讨论 因为这才是我们感兴趣的 展览就像一幅画

, it's like a painting. It's like an execution, it's like a craft, it's like a product. Which is also important, but yeah, the whole workshop is about this middle layer, the foundational layer and this middle layer where all these rules are made and where all these— Structures exist and as artists we are interested in the structures

就像一幅绘画 就像一次实施 就像一门手艺 就像一种产品 这也同样重要 不过，是的，整个工作坊都围绕这个中间层 基础层和这个中间层 在这里制定了所有这些规则 以及所有这些—— 结构是存在的，而作为艺术家，我们对这些结构感兴趣。

and the rules rather than the products that you see. But that's another topic, kind of another topic. That's the way we work, I think.

而不是你看到的那些产品，而是对规则感兴趣。 但那是另一个话题，算是另一个话题。 我觉得我们就是这样工作的。

Do you want to have lunch? And we can continue the discussion up with the lunch, huh? Okay. But thank you for the—thank you for your wonderful questions. That's super interesting.

你想吃午饭吗？ 我们可以在吃完午饭后继续讨论，对吧？ 好。 不过还是要谢谢你——谢谢你提出的精彩问题。 这真的非常有意思。

Okay. Do you, um, do you want to eat in quiet? No, no, no. It's okay. Yeah? Okay, because I can also— No, because I found it now. So this was just an inspir— like, it's not an inspiration, I just found it on social media when I was— when we were working here. And this is perfectly— it's smooth aesthetics.

好的。 你，呃，你想安静地吃吗？ 不，不，不。 没关系。 是吗？好的，因为我也可以—— 不，因为我现在找到了。 所以这只是个启发—— 就是说，这不是启发， 我只是从社交媒体上找到的， 当时我——当我们在这里工作的时候。 而且这完全—— 它的美感很顺滑。

I mean, look at that, this is— this, you know who that is? Katy Perry. Oh. Horrible person. Horrible music, horrible pop. I mean, it's pop, pop. It's like beige, you know, with these things. And everything is— everything is smooth. It's like, it's not a person, it's like a plastic. But that's not so important.

我是说，你看那个， 这是——这个，你知道那是谁吗？ Katy Perry。 哦。 糟糕的人。 音乐很糟糕，流行也很糟糕。 我是说，就是流行、流行。 就像米色那种，你懂的， 带着这些元素。 而且一切都——一切都很顺滑。 就像，它不是人， 更像是塑料。 但这没那么重要。

This is the aesthetics rider.

这是美感的"骑手"。

Um, the aesthetics rider meaning, um, it's like a— it's like a— it's like a paper that kind of defines the aesthetics. So every time you work with an AI, we just put that also in, and then the AI knows about the style, you know? But like, so, yeah, that's the definition. Um, and then this is actually the document.

呃，所谓美感的骑手是指，呃， 它就像——就像—— 就像一张纸，用来某种程度上定义 美感。 所以每次你和 AI 一起工作时， 我们也会把那个也加进去， 然后 AI 就知道这个风格， 你懂吧？ 但就是，所以，嗯， 这就是定义。 呃，然后这其实就是文档。

So this is the technical rider. But in the technical rider,

所以这是技术骑手。 但在技术骑手里，

we define— Um, we define a lot of things. It's basically the exhibition outline. Yeah? So it describes what it is. Contact and all this. Technical stuff. The plan. And then this was the rendering, how it should look. So you see, it's pretty— it's pretty close to that. One of the ideas, what we wanted to do,

我们会定义—— 呃，我们会定义很多东西。 基本上就是展览的框架。 对吧？ 所以它描述的是什么。 联系之类的这些。 技术内容。 计划。 然后这个是渲染， 看它应该是什么样子。 所以你看，它挺—— 跟那个很接近。 其中一个想法是， 我们想做的是，

is we wanted to have this, uh, dripping. That goes into the containers. But these are the things that you just then skip. It's like, fuck it, it's too complicated. You don't have the time and it's too much risk as well. And what if you fuck it up? You know? We already didn't know if the dripping works.

我们想要有这个，呃， 滴落的效果。 它会进入容器里。 但这些东西 你就直接跳过。 就像，算了吧， 太复杂了。 你没有时间 而且风险也太大了。 那如果你把它搞砸了呢？ 你懂吧？ 我们当时已经不知道 这个滴落效果有没有效果。

You can see here, I can show you a picture from the installation then. And this is— so it's an— this describes it. So it says what it should be, how it should be, and so on. This is for the team here. So we sent that a month or two weeks before. We sent it to the team. They analyze it, and they look, okay,

你可以在这里看到， 我可以给你看一张图片 是装置作品里的。 而这个—— 所以它是一个—— 这个在描述它。 所以它说明它应该是什么样， 应该怎么做， 等等。 这是给这里的团队用的。 所以我们在一两个月前就把那个发出去了。 我们把它发给了团队。 他们会分析它， 然后他们会看，好，

we need that many people, we need this material, yes, that is possible, no, this is not possible, and they— and that's how you kind of produce the exhibition, yeah?

我们需要这么多人， 我们需要这些材料， 对，这是可行的， 不，这不可行， 然后他们——这就是你大概如何制作展览的，对吧？

Yeah, it talks about the projection, the lightning,

对，它讲的是投影， 闪电，

and so on. And this was the— that's where we talked about. So see here, the idea was to put some stuff on the wall. This is very close. This is perfect. We did exactly that. Yeah. And it also worked with the sound. But this we skipped. This we took out and we used the lights.

等等。 而这就是——我们当时讨论的地方。 你看这里，想法是把一些东西放在墙上。 这个很接近。 这个很完美。 我们就是这么做的。 对。 而且它也和声音配合得很好。 但这个我们跳过了。 这个我们去掉了，然后用了灯光。

Yeah. And this— this is very different. That's what— that was the idea. And the funny thing is that on the wall, in the description of the installation, it still says that the screens are arranged like that. Yeah.

对。 而这个——这个非常不一样。 这就是——这就是想法。 有趣的是，在墙上， 在装置的描述里， 还写着屏幕就是那样摆放的。 对。

So this is a checklist for the team, so they can see, okay, we need this material, this, this, this, the check, check, check.

所以这是给团队的检查清单， 让他们能看到，好，我们需要这些材料， 这个、这个、这个、这个，勾、勾、勾。

Now, I'll show you the— some ex— some, uh, setup images.

现在，我给你看——一些准备——一些，呃，设置图片。

Oh, here you can see that.

哦，你在这里可以看到。

So here we did, um, Billie.

所以在这里我们做了，呃，Billie。

This is Billie. Echo. This is Echo, the art— the other artist.

这是Billie。 Echo。 这是Echo，那个艺术——另一个艺术家。

Installing the videos.

在安装视频。

So, it's very funny. Actually. So how long does it take? The setup? Mmhmm. Um, 10 days? 10 days. The whole exhibition? Yeah. Oh my gosh.

所以，这很搞笑。 其实。 那要花多久？ 设置？ 嗯哼。 呃，10天？ 10天。 整个展览？ 对。 天哪。

I mean, yeah, I think it was about 10 days. Maybe 8, 9. Like, actu— like netto, maybe 8, 9 days. Oh, yeah. In the end we were here for, I think, 12 days, and we worked on 10 days. Two days we took off, because you need a break. Sometimes you need a break, otherwise you go crazy.

我是说，对，我觉得大概是10天。 可能8、9天。 就是，实际——按净来说，可能8到9天。 哦，对。 最后我们在这里待了，我想，12天， 然后我们做了10天的工作。 我们休了两天， 因为你需要休息一下。 有时候你需要休息， 不然你就会崩溃。

And Billie and I, we are both, um, autistic, do you know what that is? Autism. It's a social disability. Um, and so we need times when we are, like, we have problems with so many people. It's like weird, very strange. And so when there's too many things happening, too many people, we need, uh, we need breaks.

而我和Billie，我们俩都，呃， 自闭症，你知道那是什么吗？ 自闭症。 这是一种社会障碍。 嗯，所以我们需要一些时间 比如说，我们在有问题的时候 和很多人一起。 就很奇怪，很不寻常。 所以当事情发生得太多的时候， 人也太多的时候，我们就需要，呃， 我们需要休息。

It's very important.

这非常重要。

Classic.

经典。

I don't.

我不知道。

Mmhmm.

嗯哼。

This is the producer, Joe. She was walk— she's super cool. Super smart, super fast. So this is Billie doing the painting.

这是制片人Joe。 她走——她超级酷。 超级聪明，超级快。 所以这是Billie在画画。

That was fun. But we did not know if it works. We had no idea. You know, we were just like, okay, we went outside, put the— put the paint, made it like, yeah, okay, yeah, it's thin enough. We'll try. And then we just, you know, and she went. It was pretty cool. So in a way, this is a— this is also painting, you know.

那很有趣。 但我们不知道它能不能行。 我们完全没概念。 你知道，我们就像是， 好吧，我们出去，把—— 把颜料涂上，弄得像， 嗯，好吧，嗯，它够薄了。 我们试试。 然后我们就，你知道， 她就走了。 挺酷的。 所以从某种意义上说，这是一个—— 这也是一种绘画，你知道。

It's kind of another form of painting, this— this kind of object. It's kind of sculpture and painting together. It could have— I mean, it could have also been a performance. You know, that was also— we thought about that, to do a performance at the opening. That we pull— that we do the pouring, actually, in front of the audience.

它算是另一种绘画形式， 这——这种物体。 有点像雕塑和绘画结合在一起。 它本来可以——我是说， 它也可以是一场表演。 你知道，那也是—— 我们也想过这个， 在开幕式上做一场表演。 就是我们拉——我们把它倒出来， 实际上，在观众面前。

But that would have been horrible.

但那会很糟糕。

Yeah.

对。

True.

确实。 但是它应该也没有，就是吧，想到。 想做的东西。

But it probably didn't really have anything, you know, like that. Something you want to make. Uh, just a second. Okay. I'm— I'm a Swiss American. I was born in the U.S., I grew up in Switzerland. And then I moved to Austria, so I live in Austria now. Yeah. In Vienna. Uh, but I travel 6 months, 6, 7, 8 months out of the year. No. Yeah, just— I travel, uh, 6, 6, 7, 8 months out of the year. I'm just traveling.

呃，稍等一下。 好的。 我——我是瑞士裔美国人。 我出生在美国， 在瑞士长大。 后来我搬到了奥地利， 所以现在我住在奥地利。 嗯。 在维也纳。 呃，不过我会旅行6个月， 一年里有6个月、7个月、8个月。 不。 对，就是——我会旅行，呃， 一年里有6个月、6个月、7个月、8个月。 我就是经常在旅行。

Like, now, every year, about 2, 3 months in China. And then otherwise I'm anywhere. So he's— Just doing stuff. Yeah.

比如说，现在每年都会， 在中国待大概2到3个月。 除此之外我就在任何地方。 所以他—— 就是做点事情。 嗯。

Australia. In Perth. No, I'm not in Australia. Austria. Austria. In Europe. You've been to Australia. Yeah. I've never been to Australia. It's too far for me. I don't want to go there. I don't like this long flights. It's crazy. I love— but from here it's doable, right? It's like 12 hours, 13 hours.

澳大利亚。 在珀斯。 不，我不在澳大利亚。 奥地利。 奥地利。 在欧洲。 你去过澳大利亚。 嗯。 我从没去过澳大利亚。 对我来说太远了。 我不想去那里。 我不喜欢这种长航程。 太疯狂了。 我很喜欢——但从这里过去是能做到的，对吧？ 大概12个小时、13个小时。

Okay. No, I mean, I forgot the travel time. Oh, okay.

好的。 不，我是说，我忘了旅行时间。 哦，好的。

And, um, what do you study? At CAFA?

那，呃，你学什么？ 在CAFA吗？

Oil painting. Oh, okay. In which studio? 6 weeks. 6? Studio 6? The new one. The new one, really? How is that? For the international. Yeah, yeah.

油画。 哦，好的。 在哪个画室？ 6周。 6？ 6号画室？ 新的那个。 真的是新的那个？ 怎么会这样？ 用于国际用途。 嗯，嗯。

Cool. Um, we have to be in total, we have 9 students here. Yeah. Yeah. And— 9 students? Yeah, 9 students. And why— why are you— are you— so you're not Chinese? You guess. You can guess. You can guess. I'm not. You— yeah, you're, um, right. Wait, wait, wait.

酷。 呃，我们总共得有， 这里有9个学生。 嗯。 嗯。 然后——9个学生？ 对，9个学生。 那为什么——你为什么—— 你——所以你不是中国人？ 你猜到了。 你可以猜。 你可以猜。 我不是。 你——对，你，呃， 对。 等等，等等，等等。

I would say Korean, but I'm, you know, I don't— Korean? Korean. No. It's very near, but it's fine. Very near. Yeah, Taiwan and— Oh. Yeah, yeah. Hotels. Oh, like Hong Kong or— Yeah. Oh, okay. Ah, yeah, okay. I understand. Oh, but that qualifies as international student. Um, yeah. Okay.

我会说韩语， 但我，你知道，我不—— 韩语？ 韩语。 不。 很接近，但也行。 很接近。 嗯，台湾还有—— 哦。 嗯，嗯。 酒店。 哦，比如香港之类的—— 嗯。 哦，好的。 啊，嗯，好的。 我明白了。 哦，但那算是国际学生。 嗯，是的。 好的。

Mmhm. Oh, cool. And you? In China.

嗯哼。 哦，酷。 那你呢？ 在中国。

And what is the diff— so what is different in Studio 6 to, let's say, Studio 5? Do you know? No. No, because we didn't start studying instantly. We had to choose. We had to choose the— Mm, okay. There was a freshman— fresh grade— so in the second grade then we come to the studio. So I didn't have— So you didn't— yeah.

那区别是什—— 那6号画室有什么不同， 比如说，和5号画室呢？ 你知道吗？ 不知道。 不知道，因为我们一开始没立刻开始学习。 我们得做选择。 我们得选—— 嗯，好的。 有一位一年级——新一年级—— 所以二年级的时候我们就来画室。 所以我当时没有—— 所以你没有——对。

You just choose the studio. Okay. Yeah, then next year they will come into the studio to have a lessons. Okay. I don't fully understand, but I will— I will understand soon. Not my mom.

你只是选择画室。 好的。 对，然后第二年他们会来画室， 来上课。 好的。 我不是完全听懂， 但我会——我很快就能明白。 不是我妈。

--

下周三。

Next Wednesday. Or here at UBERMORGEN.

或者在 UBERMORGEN 这里。 我得，我不给你。 哦对，等一下。 那她是刚才讲到哪去了？

I have to—I'm not giving it to you. Oh right, wait a second. So where did she just stop talking?

但是就是，就是很、很抱歉你在讲课的时候，我有一点——因为有点软，我有点没听清楚。但是我看了那个，就是，就是我看了展览之后，呃，就是，就是我有就是该怎么说，

But, I mean, I'm really sorry—while you were lecturing, I was a bit—because I was a bit weak, I didn't quite hear it clearly. But after I watched that—well, after I saw the exhibition, uh, I mean, I kind of—how should I put it— Folks, okay, now it looks okay. Oh, okay, now I think you can try again. Try again.

各位，好，现在看起来没问题了。 哦，好，现在我觉得你可以再试一次。 再试一次。

Um, don't hurt it.

嗯，别弄坏它。 我看了，就是前面的，那些展览。

I looked—those exhibitions up front.

所有一个，就是我还有一些，就是还挺，就是有一些疑问的点。 就是，就是有一个好奇的点，为什么会，就是，就是那个视频里面会出现鸽子，因为鸽子可能让我想到的是，可能也许是和平的元素，或者是什么的。就是，就是我觉得它很纯洁，

and I still have some— I mean, there are still a few points I'm unsure about. I mean, there's this point I'm curious about: why the video shows a dove, because a dove might make me think of— maybe elements of peace, or something like that. I mean, I think it's very pure,

它有类似一种光滑性，

it has a kind of smoothness,

但是它，嗯。 但是，但是关于这个元素的，就是，呃，该怎么说呢。 就是你没来的时候它见过。 哦，这样吗？就是，就是，就是我没来那天有讲过这个用鸽子的原因吗？但是我真的挺好奇的，因为我在看很多生成式艺术的时候，

but it, um... But, but about this element, I mean, uh, how should I put it? It's like it saw you when you didn't show up. Oh, is that so? I mean, I mean, did I talk about the reason for using a dove that day? But I'm really curious, because when I watch a lot of generative art,

我觉得它就是，它们都很喜欢往里面，就是加入非常多的元素，就是，就，就比如说里面的那一个展览，就是，就是另外一个艺术家的展览，就使用了非常多的元素，然后包括可能中国的元素，赛博科的元素，或者什么的。就是，就是。

I feel like they all really like to go into it, to add a lot of elements, like, for example, that exhibition in there, an exhibition by another artist, used a huge amount of elements, including possibly Chinese elements, elements from Cyborg, or something like that. I mean, I mean.

其实它对我的，它对我，就是正常的对一个艺术作品进行解读的那种感受，还产生了挺大的挑战的，因为就是它给了你太多的信息，然后。 就是，就是它会有这样一种感觉。

Actually, for me— for me— the normal feeling of interpreting an artwork, has become quite a challenge, because it gives you too much information, and then... I mean, it gives you that kind of feeling. Yes.

是的。 嗯，所以我还挺好奇，就是鸽子，关于鸽子，就是为什么会有鸽子。

Mm, so I'm still pretty curious, about the dove—about doves, why there are doves. I think you answered it yourself. It means— I mean, with the— when you say that it's very hard to interpret exhibitions,

我觉得你自己已经回答了。 意思是——我是说，关于—— 当你说展览很难解读时，

it's— I think it's the approach for us is not that we want people to interpret it. We just want them to experience it. And we make things that are so generic, and that's also the dark. I cannot answer you why we use the dark, because Liz did that, but I would say the dark is such a generic thing. Do you know what generic means?

我觉得我们的做法不是要让人们去解读它。 我们只是希望他们去体验它。 而我们做出的东西太笼统了， 这也很阴暗。 我没法回答我们为什么用"暗"， 因为Liz做了那个， 但我会说"暗"是一种很笼统的东西。 你知道"generic"是什么意思吗？

Uh, generic. Just asking because I want to be clear.

呃，generic。 我只是问一下，因为我想说清楚。

Maybe.

也许。 可以。

Okay. Generic. What by generic I mean standard. Um, something that is, like, everybody uses. I mean, it loses meaning. It's, it's, it's a— it's like a CocaCola, it's generic, you know? Not the CocaCola itself, the brand, but the CocaCola itself is a generic thing. Um, and dolls are super generic. Everybody uses them for, yeah, for peace,

通用的。 我说的通用，我是指标准。 嗯，就是那种大家都会用的东西。 我的意思是，它会失去意义。 它、它、它就像——就像可口可乐， 它很通用，你懂吧？ 不是可口可乐这个品牌本身， 而是可口可乐本身就是一种通用的东西。 嗯，而且娃娃也非常通用。 大家都用它来，嗯，用来表达和平，

for aesthetics, or for whatever the fuck. Oh. Now, if you try to interpret the work that we do, it'll— it's going to be difficult, because as I talked before with the other group, there are so many layers to what we do. It's very— you have to go to the website and you really have to read the context.

用来做美学，或者别的什么鬼用途。 哦。 现在，如果你试着去解读这些作品， 我们做的这些作品，就会——会很难， 因为就像我之前跟另一组说的， 我们做的事情有太多层次。 这很——你得去网站上看， 而且你真的得读懂背景语境。

There's a lot of text. And context. And then you have to research our artist history. And you have to look at how we work, and you have to look at other works, you know, to understand, hmm, ah, okay, okay. So there's so much, so many layers. Onto this really generic and boring work that we are here showing,

文字很多。 还有语境。 然后你还得研究我们的艺术史。 你得看我们是怎么工作的， 还得看其他作品，你懂的， 才能理解，嗯，啊，好，好。 所以层次真的太多了。 再加上这些非常通用、很无聊的作品， 我们在这里展示的这些，

and the dolls are the same. For me, that doesn't— it means nothing, and the idea that it means nothing is that you can project your idea of what it means onto this kind of white thing with the eyes that fly around. Or onto these weird people that are standing there in front of the mirror doing something.

而娃娃也是一样的。 对我来说，那并不——毫无意义， 而"毫无意义"这个想法， 就是你可以把你的想法投射出去， 把它的意义投射到这种白色的东西上， 眼睛在那儿飞来飞去。 或者投射到这些奇怪的人， 他们站在镜子前面， 在做着什么。

It has no inherent meaning. The idea is always to be as smooth or as open from the art world. Work that the vis— the visitor can project their own ideas, feelings, "I like that." Because it gives the power to the visitor

它没有内在的意义。 核心想法永远是要尽可能顺滑， 或者尽可能从艺术界的视角看得更开放。 让参观者能够投射出来的作品， 他们自己的想法、感受，比如"我喜欢这个"。 因为这会赋予参观者力量，

if you want to interpret then it becomes like an art critic. Would interpret a work. But that is in itself kind of an artistic gesture. Because it's an interpretation. And it cannot be true; it's just an interpretation. And if you know that it's just an interpretation, that's fine. Then you define the artwork.

如果你想去解读，那它就会变得像艺术评论家一样。 会去解读一件作品。 但这本身也算是一种艺术性的举动。 因为这是一种解读。 而且它不可能是真的； 它只是解读而已。 如果你知道这只是解读， 那没问题。 那你就在定义这件艺术作品。

But it doesn't have anything to do with why we or how we do it. It's— it's something else, for sure. And that's fine. You're— oh.

但这和我们的作品没有任何关系， 也和我们为什么、怎么做无关。 它——它肯定是另一回事。 这没问题。 你——哦。 还有一个，就是，就比如说，嗯，因为如果想呈现一种平滑，或者呈现一种，就是生成一种，生成式艺术它所带来的那种光滑的话，那其实AI生成的产物它都具有这样一种特性。但是比如说我们要把它放到一个美术馆去展览，

One more thing—like, for example, um, because if you want to convey a kind of smoothness, or convey a kind of—like, generate a kind of— that smoothness that generative art brings, then AIgenerated outputs actually have this kind of trait. But if we put it in an art museum for an exhibition,

可能需要去筛选。我们要，就是，它带来这样一种感觉，但是我们具体要使用什么，或者，嗯，就是要呈现什么画面，就是，它可能需要做这样一种挑选。那这样一种挑选是什么趋势的呢？

we might need to filter it. We want—like, it brings that kind of feeling, but what exactly do we want to use, or, um, what kind of image do we want to present, it might need to do that kind of selection. So what trend is this kind of selection about?

嗯。 趋势。

Mm. Trend. Yes. So, as a—

是的。 所以，作为一个—— 呃，呃，it is a—

Uh, uh, it is a— It is a— it has a translate a—

它是一个——它有一个翻译的—— 趋势。 你会那个英文的？ 呃，我 try to the selection。 驱赶。 呃，不对，那个驱赶。 呃。

Trend. Do you know the English for that? Uh, I try to the selection. Drive away. Uh, no—drive away. Uh. Yeah, just describe it around, then I'll— I will understand if you do a little bit of context to what you mean. Just talk a little bit more.

对，就把它描述一下， 然后我——我就能理解， 如果你能给一点背景， 说明你的意思是什么。 再多说一点。 就是，就是，比如说有很多，就是生成，就是生成式的作品，但是可能需要挑选一些把它放置到美术馆里。那它可能带有，就是这样一种，这样一种挑选，就是应该一层什么去挑选的。因为，因为我看，就是，就是我觉得不同，呃，

I mean, for example, there are many, generative—generative works, but you might need to pick some to place in an art museum. And that might carry, this kind of—this kind of selection, like what you should choose in each layer. Because—because I see, I mean, I feel that different—uh,

该怎么说呢，因为我先前看过一些，就是亚洲艺术家他们的生成式作品，他们的作品中他们非常喜欢去放入一些，嗯，该怎么形容，呃，亚洲元素。或者说是，呃，类似于太极，类似于，然后，然后又加入一些赛博朋克内容，然后又或者是可能像拳皇，

how should I put it, because I've seen some before, generative works by Asian artists, and in their works they really like to add some, um, how do I put it, uh, Asian elements. Or, uh, things like taiji, and then add some cyberpunk content, or maybe like Kung Fu Panda,

或者。 类似这种的东亚亚文化的那种感觉，然后它就是把它加入进去。 嗯。 但是，但是同时它表达的可能是

or. That kind of East Asian subculture vibe, and then you just add it in. Mm. But at the same time, what it may express is

一种该怎么说，嗯，。

a kind of—how do I put it—um. So do you— are you saying that it's kind of superficial and you just put it to counterpoint with some— some, uh, Chinese historical thing, and then you just generate something?

所以你是——你是说 它有点肤浅， 然后你就把它拿来对照对比， 比如某种——某种，呃，中国历史的东西， 然后你就生成点什么？ 就，就是，就是我想的，就是我想的是这种生成式的东西，就是它会给你很多东西，然后它有非常多，就是各式各样的元素。但是为什么会选择这些元素去放置到作品之中，因为它们同样都呈现了，就是所谓的AI的平滑，或者就是。

That's—that's what I was thinking, what I mean is this kind of generative stuff, it gives you a lot of things, and it has a whole lot of, all kinds of elements. But why choose these elements to place in the work, because they all convey, what's called AI smoothness, or, you know.

嗯。 因为它们都是生成式作品。 所以我有点好奇，

Mm. Because they're all generative works. So I'm a bit curious,

就是，就是出于。

I mean, just because of—

去选择。

Choosing. You know. Because of what? So why did we choose what we choose?

你知道。 因为什么？ 那我们为什么会选我们选的东西？

我觉得 I cannot really answer it I think I can't really answer it because I don't produce generative art. I'm not a visual artist. I do work with text, I work with concepts, I work with research mainly. Liz, my partner, does a lot of visual work. So, um, I don't really know what happens in her brain. She's a really good painter. She's a very good visual artist. I saw the doves and I thought,

因为我不做生成式艺术。 我不是视觉艺术家。 我确实会用文字来工作， 我会用概念来工作， 主要是做研究。 Liz，我的伴侣， 做很多视觉作品。 所以，嗯，我其实不太清楚 她的大脑里会发生什么。 她是个非常好的画家。 她也是个非常优秀的视觉艺术家。 我看了那些鸽子，我就觉得，

I find it very cheap. Very generic and cheap. And it works. It really works. It's like one of the things where people react. Now, if you create something smooth and boring like the exhibition that we did, you probably need to put in two or three things, like the sound, the dove, and the colorful, the portraits of the people.

我觉得这很廉价。 非常笼统，也很廉价。 但它确实有效。 它真的有效。 这就像是我们在做的事情之一， 人们会产生反应。 现在，如果你创作出那种顺滑又无聊的东西， 比如我们做的那个展览， 你可能就需要加上两三样东西， 比如声音、鸽子，还有色彩丰富的， 人们的肖像。

Just in order to entertain the people on some level. Otherwise they will just walk through and think this is like a boring conference center or a hotel room or a watch. We intend to be create this kind of home of a billionaire. You know? Because they have these postbeige, boring,

只是为了让人们看得开心， 在某种程度上。 不然他们就会一路走过去， 觉得这就像个无聊的会议中心， 或者酒店房间，或者一块表。 我们的目的，是创造这种"家"， 属于某个亿万富翁的家。 你懂吧？ 因为他们有那种米色之后的、无聊的，

general generic.

很普通、很笼统的。

Lives.

生活。

And, um, I think Liz is doing that probably in a mix of intuition and, uh, and intention. A lot of generative art I criticize. I hate generative art. I mean, traditional generative art of the internet, you know, like artists who work with mathematical formulas or with, um, yeah, with very simple—now with the NFT scene in the 1921, 22.

然后，嗯，我觉得 Liz 做这个， 可能是把直觉和，呃， 以及意图混在一起。 很多生成式艺术我都会批评。 我讨厌生成式艺术。 我是说，传统的生成式艺术， 就是网上的那种，你懂的， 比如用数学公式工作的艺术家， 或者用，嗯，对，用非常简单的—— 比如现在 1921、22 年的 NFT 圈子。

Um, super stupid artists, really. Incredibly. Like, um, dumb artists and they are really dumb. I mean, these are people who have no political understanding, there's no real content. It's just surface. It's just stupid. And we are kind of re— we're not making fun of that in the exhibition, but we're using this as a gesture

嗯，真的是特别蠢的艺术家。 简直离谱。 就是，嗯，很蠢的艺术家，而且他们真的很蠢。 我是说，这些人完全没有政治素养， 也没有真正的内容。 就只是表面。 就是很蠢。 而我们算是又——我们并不是在嘲笑这个， 在展览里，但我们把这当作一种姿态，

is like. We would say we use— we are painters and we would use the Campbell soup from Warhol and we would use the Rothko thing and then the black mileage and we would put that together into one painting. That's a horribly bad painting gesture. If you do that, just like that. But if you have 10 layers conceptual layers underneath,

就像这样。 我们会说我们用——我们是画家， 我们会用沃尔霍尔的"坎贝尔汤"， 我们会用罗斯科的那套东西， 然后再加上"black mileage"， 把这些拼在一起， 做成一幅画。 那是一种糟糕透顶的绘画姿态。 如果你就那样做，就那样。 但如果你下面还有 10 层概念层，

it might really be a good painter. But not visually. Visually it's horrible. And sometimes as artists you have to understand that you create something that is completely misunderstandable that a lot of people will say it's bad art because they don't understand that you have been working for years on research, on context,

他可能真的是个很好的画家。 但视觉上不行。 视觉上就很糟。 而且有时候作为艺术家，你得明白， 你创造出的东西完全是可以被误解的， 很多人会说那是糟糕的艺术， 因为他们不明白你一直在做， 多年的研究、语境，

and you came up with this thing and you know exact— after 30 years of practice you know exactly what we are doing. Everything that we do is either exactly as it should be or it's randomized in a way that it's connected to our intuition. And our intuition is trained. So I'm quite positive that we very much know

然后你想出了这个东西， 而且你很清楚——30 年的练习之后， 你就非常清楚我们在做什么。 我们做的一切要么完全按应有的样子来， 要么被随机化到一种方式， 让它和我们的直觉相连。 而我们的直觉是被训练出来的。 所以我相当确定，我们非常清楚，

what we're doing. But the output can be horrible. And that's okay for us. One of our strategies is that we always do different art. We never repeat ourselves. This makes us very weak on the market. Because the market wants people who do the same over and over and over again and just evolve the very, very precise stuff.

我们在做什么。 但成果可能会很糟。 这对我们来说没问题。 我们的一个策略是：我们总是做不同的艺术作品。 我们从不重复自己。 这会让我们在市场上变得很弱。 因为市场想要做同样的事的人， 一遍又一遍、再一遍， 只是把非常非常精细的东西不断进化。

Um, but for me as a, uh, yeah, as I said before, autistic and ADHD person, I would— I would just fall asleep after 5 minutes. So I have to do new things all over again. Sometimes we also do bad art. Because when you experiment, sometimes you— you get it wrong. That's awesome. That was a very long answer.

嗯，但对我来说，呃，是的， 就像我之前说的，我是自闭症和 ADHD 的人， 我会——我会在 5 分钟后就睡着。 所以我得重新做新的东西。 有时候我们也会做糟糕的艺术作品。 因为当你在做实验时，你有时候—— 会做错。 那太棒了。 这是个很长的回答。

Very imprecise answer. To you. Kind of question.

回答非常不准确。 给你。 这种问题。

Um, but yeah, you cannot— I cannot answer that often. I don't know. Honestly.

嗯，不过是的，你不能—— 我不能经常回答这个。 我不知道。 说实话。

If that's what you wanted to know.

如果这就是你想知道的。 我知道为什么不能经常回答这种问题。

I know why you can't answer this kind of question often. Why?

为什么？ 原因也是不能说的。 或者说没必要说。

The reason is also that you can't say it. Or rather, there's no need to say it. Yeah.

嗯。 啊，我们但是我觉得你刚刚讲的很很能够引发我的一些对于这些事情的思考，以及我自己的关于这些整个状况的思考。 还是很感谢你的回答。

Ah, but I think what you just said really sparked some thinking for me about these things, and also my own thinking about this whole situation. I'm still very grateful for your answer. Historically, UBERMORGEN comes and also Itoi, which was the collective in the— in the early 90s that I did, which was really avantgarde, intimate art. Um, because it's avantgarde, nobody understands. You do something that you are 5 years, 10 years ahead of everybody. That makes you an outsider. The art world, uh, your friends, your colleagues,

从历史上看，UBERMORGEN 以及 Itoi 也都是这样， 也就是我在 90 年代初期参与的那个团体， 那真的是前卫的、很私密的艺术。 嗯，因为它是前卫的，没人理解。 你做的事情，往往比你想象的早 5 年、10 年， 比所有人都要早。 这会让你显得像个外行。 艺术界，呃，你的朋友、你的同事，

other artists that you know, they hate you. They don't understand you. They push you out. Because they think you are wrong. Only you know that you're right. And because we are social human beings and in China the family, for example, is even more important than the friends. A social— a social, as I understand, yeah,

你认识的其他艺术家，他们都恨你。 他们不理解你。 他们会把你排挤出去。 因为他们觉得你错了。 只有你知道自己是对的。 而且因为我们是社会性的人， 在中国，比如说家庭， 比朋友还要重要。 一个社会——一个社会性的，按我理解，是的，

the social fabric. It's historically biologically sociologically a survival strategy of the humans to stick together and to, um, to want to belong to a group of people. If you do art that is so way out of the norm, you— you do not belong to the people in China. And that is very risky emotionally and socially.

社会的织体。 从历史、生物、社会学的角度看，这是一种生存策略， 让人类能够团结在一起， 并且，嗯，想要属于一个群体。 如果你做的艺术远远超出 常规，那你——你就不属于 中国的那一群人。 这在情感和社会层面都非常危险。

This is the problem that a lot of art students have. Why they don't produce very good work and radical work. Because you are at the age where you can do things that no one can do. You can think ahead 5 years, 10 years, and can risk doing things. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. But you— you have to gamble.

这就是很多艺术学生的问题。 为什么他们不会创作出很好的作品， 而且是很激进的作品。 因为你已经到了可以做一些事情的年纪， 而别人谁也做不到。 你可以提前 5 年、10 年去思考， 也可以冒险去做。 有时候能成，有时候不成。 但你——你必须去冒险。

You have to risk your art at least. Not your life. Your art. And maybe some friends who are maybe boring people or traditional people or conservative people. But that's why I separate friends and art. Yeah. My artist friends are not real friends. They're artists. They're competition. And my real friends are my old, old friends.

至少你得拿你的艺术去冒险。 不是你的人生，是你的艺术。 也许有些朋友可能是些无聊的人， 或者传统的人、保守的人。 所以我才会把朋友和艺术分开。 嗯。 我的艺术朋友不是真正的朋友。 他们是艺术家。 他们是竞争对手。 而我真正的朋友是我那些老朋友。

They don't care if I do weird things, strange things, things that they don't understand. And that way I can always do things that are outside of the norm. And this exhibition is something like that. In 5 years people will understand it much better than now. Now it's just boring and weird. And in 5 years people will much more understand

他们不在乎我做些奇怪的事， 很怪的事，或者他们不理解的东西。 这样我就总能做一些事情， 超出常规的那种。 这个展览就是这样的例子。 5 年后人们会明白， 比现在要明白得多。 现在只是无聊又怪。 而5年后，人们会更明白，

because we are talking about something that is happening now. And usually art doesn't describe what is happening now. It's also kind of conservative and in the back. Which is fine. But I— I'm not interested in that.

因为我们谈的是一种东西， 它正在发生在当下。 而通常艺术并不会描述 当下正在发生什么。 它也有点保守、也很隐蔽。 这也没关系。 但我——我对那个不感兴趣。

But really important and maybe you can answer me this question. To you, yeah. How— how do you feel sometimes when you have ideas that you know that your friends and your other students will not understand? Do you still do it and risk that they say, "What the fuck is that?" That they— for example, make fun of you.

但这很重要，也许你可以回答我 这个问题。问你，对。 你——你有时候会怎么感觉， 当你有一些想法，你知道 你的朋友和其他学生 不会理解？ 你还是会去做，并且冒着 他们说"这他妈是什么？"的风险吗？ 比如说——他们会嘲笑你。

This is very, very painful. They laugh. They're like, "Oh, this is such a bad work. Oh, oh, oh." And— and you have to stand there and sit there and say, "I know. I know I'm doing the right thing." Because I think it's right. You know, I think it's right and I do not let myself be influenced by them do.

这非常非常痛苦。 他们会笑。 他们会说："哦，这作品真糟糕。" "哦，哦，哦。" 而且——而你得站在那里， 坐着说："我知道。" "我知道我做的是对的。" 因为我觉得这是对的。 你知道，我觉得这是对的， 而且我不会让自己被影响， 不会被他们影响。

Do you feel that sometimes?

你有时候会这么感觉吗？ 如果我有一个非常好的，非常好的想法，但是。 嗯，别人不理解。嗯，朋友们没有理解。

If I had a really, really good idea, but... Mm, others don't understand. Mm, my friends don't understand. That—

那—— 但是我觉得就是让自己的创、创作和就是别人的想法去间隔开来，或者建立自己的秩序，才是一个挺重要的事。 嗯，就是，就是，在自、自己的秩序中它可能像一个，像一所自己的房子，可能需要自己去慢慢搭建它。但是就是。

But I think it's about setting your creative work and other people's ideas apart, or creating your own order, that's what's really important. Mm, I mean, within your own order, it can be like a— like your own house, that you may need to build up slowly yourself. But, yeah.

就像在这个问题。 就是朋友们怎么说。 就是我觉得朋友们不论怎么说，他们都是很好的朋友。但是他们和你自己的秩序无关。 可能在我心里是这样的。 就是，就是我是一个这样的人。但是我觉得大家可能也有不同的方式。

It's like in this question. Like, what my friends say. I feel that no matter what my friends say, they're really good friends. But they have nothing to do with your own order. Maybe that's how it is in my heart. I mean, I'm that kind of person. But I think everyone may have different ways.

比如说有些人非常乐意跟朋友一起去创作。我觉得这也是很好的。就是很、很棒的。会有创造力的事。

For example, some people are very willing to create with friends. I think that's great too. It's really, really great. It brings creativity.

好。

Okay.

然后我就。

And then I...

我昨天还跟他聊过是否应该把，就是自己的情感和就是，就是所谓的创作其实是不是该区分开来的话题。我昨天跟他还聊过这个话题。 好。好。 嗯。 好。嗯。 我。

Yesterday I even talked with him about whether we should— whether our feelings and what's called creative work should actually be separated. I talked with him about this topic yesterday. Okay. Okay. Mm. Okay. Mm. I...

我觉得。

I think...

我觉得这个。

I think this... You don't have to.

你不必这样。

The hospital schools, actually. It's easier if you work with a team.

其实是医学院。 如果你和团队一起工作，会更容易。 就是。

I mean... If you're like two or three or five. I always work in a team. I never work alone as an artist. It makes it much easier because if you're in a team, it's like a little cult. And that way you can support each other when it gets hard emotionally. Like the whole— when I was a student, people would spit in my face because they thought

如果你是两个、三个或五个人。 我一直都是团队合作。 作为艺术家，我从不独自工作。 这样会容易得多， 因为如果你在团队里， 就像一个小团体一样。 这样你们就能互相支持， 在情绪上变得很难的时候。 比如说整体上——我还是学生的时候， 别人会朝我脸上吐口水，因为他们觉得

I was an asshole. I was a fascist. I was an idiot. I hated you for what I did and how I looked and how I presented myself. And if you are alone, it's very hard to endure. But if you have a few people, you do this together, it's much easier because then you're like a crew. You're like a— you can talk to each other

我是个混蛋。 我是个法西斯。 我是个蠢货。 我因为我做过的事而恨你， 也恨我的外表和我呈现自己的方式。 而如果你一个人， 真的很难扛得住。 但如果你身边有几个人， 你们一起做这件事， 就容易多了，因为那样你们就像一个团队。 你们就像——可以互相聊天，

and say, "Hey, we are doing the right thing." Just— and you— and you also can use the different elements of skill and personalities that the different people have. And can really build a crew. That's why I always say artists have to work in teams and not alone. It's much better. You have a— it's— it's also very simple.

然后说："嘿，我们做的是对的。" 就是——而且你——你也可以利用 各种技能和个性的不同元素， 这些都是不同的人所拥有的。 并且真的能组建起一个团队。 所以我一直说，艺术家必须在 团队里合作，而不是单独工作。 这样好得多。 你有一个——就是——也很简单。

It's like you have to look at art as a competitive field. It's like sports. It's much closer than sports than a lot of people think. You're competing. In China there are so many art students. How many do you think are going to be successful as artists? Very, very few. 2%. 2%. Yeah. So all— from all these people,

就是你得把艺术看作 一种竞争领域。 就像运动一样。 它比起运动来说更接近， 比很多人以为的要近得多。 你们是在竞争。 在中国有那么多艺术生。 你觉得有多少人会成功， 成为艺术家？ 非常非常少。 2%。 2%。 对。 所以从所有这些人当中，

maybe one person will make it as a real artist. You know, and can live off the art and can be successful. You have to be— you know, and you don't have to be nasty to other people, but you have to be so determined and so just go, you know, and learn. Yeah. When people like me come to suck it in, suck it in,

也许会有一个人能做到 成为真正的艺术家。 你知道的，还能靠艺术为生， 并且能成功。 你得——你知道的， 而且你不必对别人刻薄， 对其他人也是如此， 但你必须非常坚定， 就这么直接去做，你知道的， 并且去学习。 对。 当像我这样的人来，把它吸进去， 一口气吸进去，

but don't believe everything. Suck it in, suck it in. Talk about it, talk about it, and then do your own thing. Yeah. Don't let yourself be too influ— I always had idols. I had people that I like— I don't know— like Charles Bukowski or Keith Richards or— or people like that. They— I like them because they were weird people.

但别什么都信。 吸进去，吸进去。 谈一谈，谈一谈， 然后做你自己的事。 对。 别让自己被影响得太—— 我一直都有偶像。 我有一些人我喜欢—— 我也说不清——比如Charles Bukowski， 或者Keith Richards，或者—— 或者类似的人。 他们——我喜欢他们， 因为他们是些很怪的人。

Radical people. So I had idols. I wouldn't do everything they said. Never. I won't— I do what I want, what I think is right. But it's good to have these people that you kind of look up to. Because you can copy some things. And then you mix it with your own stuff. And that makes you very strong. Strategic.

很激进的人。 所以我就有偶像。 我不会照他们说的什么都做。 绝不。 我不会——我做我想做的， 我觉得对的就做。 但有这样的人很好， 你会有点崇拜他们。 因为你可以模仿一些东西。 然后再把它和你自己的东西混在一起。 这会让你变得很强。 很有策略。

And you have to understand it's a competition. And you have to win. Otherwise you're going to end up doing— maybe also something nice, but if you really want to be an artist, you really have to be— you really have to be— you have to be greedy. You know? You have to be selfish. You have to be opportunistic.

而且你得明白这是一场竞争。 你必须赢。 不然你最后就会—— 也许做出一些好东西， 但如果你真的想当艺术家， 你真的必须—— 你真的必须—— 你必须有野心。 你懂吗？ 你必须自私。 你必须机会主义。

And— and if you work in a team, you don't have to be that. You know? Individually. I like this. I like this. Yes. This.

而且——如果你在团队里工作， 你不必变成那样。 你懂吗？要个人独立。 我喜欢这个。 我喜欢这个。 是的。 这个。 这个很有意思其实。 它这种很有意思。因为—因为当有一个这样的情况出现的时候，你发现原来那个是你很喜欢的，你想去做的、了解的，你就会被激发一些学习更多、学习的动力。好吧。

This is actually really interesting. This kind of thing is really interesting. Because—because when a situation like this comes up, you realize that was actually something you really liked, something you wanted to do and understand, and it triggers you to learn more—to learn with more motivation. Okay.

Sorry打断你了。 抱歉打断你了。 感觉很多就是想要创作的时刻，经常都是闪到别人的刺激。对。 这种是不是比较—

It feels like in many moments when you want to create, you often get jolted by other people's stimuli. Right. Is this kind of more— You have to go to center. Yeah. But we can continue. You can still write me on WhatsApp. Okay? WhatsApp. And— yeah, yeah. We can just continue the discussion. And we can talk tomorrow. Day. Tomorrow. Tomorrow. Take time. Talk about this— this stuff if you want to. Okay?

你得回到中心。 对。 但我们可以继续。 你还是可以在 WhatsApp 上给我发消息。 好吗？ WhatsApp。 然后——对，对。 我们就继续讨论吧。 我们明天再聊。 今天。明天。明天。 慢慢来。 想聊这个——这些东西的话就聊。 好吗？ 你会去深圳吗？

Will you go to Shenzhen? No. I'll stay. Okay? You have fun.

不。 我会留下。 好吗？ 你好好玩。 好。

Okay. Like that. Thank you. Thank you. Very interesting. Fun too. Thank you. Thank you.

就这样。 谢谢。 谢谢。 非常有意思。 也很有趣。 谢谢。 谢谢。 谢谢。 我去。

Thank you. I'm going.

现在可能没有时间。我可以加你的联系方式。

I might not have time right now. I can add your contact details. We can— we can— can you send it to via WhatsApp or WeChat? Or— You ask— write it down and you ask me tomorrow. Okay, okay. Yeah. Then we have time. I have— we have a lot of time tomorrow. Yeah. I— I will memorize. And you come to. Okay? Okay, okay. Yeah?

我们可以——我们可以—— 你能通过 WhatsApp 或 WeChat 发给我吗？ 或者——你问——我写下来， 然后你明天再来问我。 好，好。 嗯。 那我们就有时间了。 我有——我们明天有很多时间。 嗯。 我——我会背下来。 然后你来。 好吗？ 好，好。 嗯？ 谢谢。

Thank you.